Discussion:
Game?
(too old to reply)
Dallas
2005-10-31 05:57:28 UTC
Permalink
First item under Microsoft's new "Flight Simulator Insider" under the
heading Flight Sim Tweaks FAQ:

The Flight Simulator team offers up some information on how to tweak your
game. >> Learn more.

http://www.fsinsider.com/

So Microsoft thinks of FS as a "game"?

Bruce Artwick never called it a "game".


Dallas
Roger Burton West
2005-10-31 08:59:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallas
So Microsoft thinks of FS as a "game"?
Bruce Artwick never called it a "game".
It's written by the Games Department so it's a game.

(Alternatively, you get fired for doing it at work so it's either a game
or porn. :-)

R
Marcel Kuijper
2005-10-31 20:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallas
First item under Microsoft's new "Flight Simulator Insider" under the
The Flight Simulator team offers up some information on how to tweak your
game. >> Learn more.
http://www.fsinsider.com/
So Microsoft thinks of FS as a "game"?
Bruce Artwick never called it a "game".
I'd like to give those twits a piece of my mind!
Game. Who are they to call it a game?
Don't they know the difference between a sim and a game?

In a sim one simulates a part of life.
In a game one collects points or plays with the objective to win by getting
to the finish first.
--
Marcel (SAG-21)
(If you've gotta be part of a group, be part of a group of simmers!)
Dallas
2005-10-31 22:57:48 UTC
Permalink
"Marcel Kuijper" <
Post by Marcel Kuijper
In a sim one simulates a part of life.
In a game one collects points or plays with the objective to win by getting
to the finish first.
Hear, hear! Sir Kuiper!

Well spoken ole chap...


Dallas
(Just getting ready for the visit of Prince Charles.)
Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)
2005-11-01 12:50:48 UTC
Permalink
On the radio last night Old Charlie Boy was saying he hates state visits and
prefers private ones.
I'm sure its not personal to your country.

Ibby
Post by Dallas
"Marcel Kuijper" <
Post by Marcel Kuijper
In a sim one simulates a part of life.
In a game one collects points or plays with the objective to win by
getting
Post by Marcel Kuijper
to the finish first.
Hear, hear! Sir Kuiper!
Well spoken ole chap...
Dallas
(Just getting ready for the visit of Prince Charles.)
Iain Smith
2005-11-01 14:26:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallas
Well spoken ole chap...
Dallas
(Just getting ready for the visit of Prince Charles.)
Please don't make the mistake, common among US citizens, of thinking that we
all speak like him! ;0))

Iain
Victor West
2005-11-01 15:57:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iain Smith
Post by Dallas
Well spoken ole chap...
Dallas
(Just getting ready for the visit of Prince Charles.)
Please don't make the mistake, common among US citizens, of thinking that
we all speak like him! ;0))
But on the other hand, we all know that all Americans wear 10 gallon hats,
have huge cars and houses and like to yell "Yeeeeee Haaaww" at every
opportunity! :-)))

Victor
Dallas
2005-11-01 21:08:17 UTC
Permalink
"Victor West"
Post by Victor West
But on the other hand, we all know that all Americans wear 10 gallon hats,
have huge cars and houses and like to yell "Yeeeeee Haaaww" at every
opportunity! :-)))
Yes, that's stereotyping... we don't wear 10 gallon hats. :-)

Yeeeeee Haaaww!
Dallas
Marcel Kuijper
2005-11-01 15:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallas
(Just getting ready for the visit of Prince Charles.)
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

You guys got old jug-ears!
We got Poetin!


Marcel
Jon Silk
2005-11-01 18:29:27 UTC
Permalink
Why does the word 'game' cause you guys so much angst?

Don't your wives allow you to play games on the computer or something? :))
Post by Dallas
First item under Microsoft's new "Flight Simulator Insider" under the
The Flight Simulator team offers up some information on how to tweak your
game. >> Learn more.
http://www.fsinsider.com/
So Microsoft thinks of FS as a "game"?
Bruce Artwick never called it a "game".
Dallas
Marcel Kuijper
2005-11-01 19:49:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Silk
Why does the word 'game' cause you guys so much angst?
It's true that some of us take SIMming a little more serious than others,
but that's all part of the realism factor. If you can make it look real, it
can feel real. Therefore it becomes a SIMulation of life.
Hence the preferation of the term "sim" over "game"

And let's, of course, not forget the most obvious of all: the title.
Flight Simulation.
I'll repeat that slightly more enhanced: Flight SIMulation.
Post by Jon Silk
Don't your wives allow you to play games on the computer or something? :))
Shoot-em-ups are best in my book. RSE rulezzz, duuude!
I've found games like Ghost Recon, Rainbow Six and Splinter Cell to be good
for anger management. :-)
--
Marcel (SAG-21)
(...travelling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy!)
Vern
2005-11-03 04:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marcel Kuijper
Post by Jon Silk
Why does the word 'game' cause you guys so much angst?
It's true that some of us take SIMming a little more serious than
others, but that's all part of the realism factor. If you can make it
look real, it can feel real. Therefore it becomes a SIMulation of
life. Hence the preferation of the term "sim" over "game"
...I still think of it as a game though. I cannot claim my flightsim hours
towards my pilot licence and the only reason I, and others, use the program
is purely for the entertainment.

There are other flight simulation programs out there besides those put out
by microsoft that are not games but actual training systems. The hours
spent in them can be legally used towards certain aspects of your licences
and ratings as a pilot. Compared to these, again, I can only see MSFS as a
very entertaining "game" to play in one's spare time or as a hobby.

Perhaps some people just hate to admit that they are hooked on a really
really cool video game....like I am. :o )
Jay Beckman
2005-11-03 05:00:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vern
Post by Marcel Kuijper
Post by Jon Silk
Why does the word 'game' cause you guys so much angst?
It's true that some of us take SIMming a little more serious than
others, but that's all part of the realism factor. If you can make it
look real, it can feel real. Therefore it becomes a SIMulation of
life. Hence the preferation of the term "sim" over "game"
...I still think of it as a game though. I cannot claim my flightsim hours
towards my pilot licence and the only reason I, and others, use the program
is purely for the entertainment.
There are other flight simulation programs out there besides those put out
by microsoft that are not games but actual training systems. The hours
spent in them can be legally used towards certain aspects of your licences
and ratings as a pilot. Compared to these, again, I can only see MSFS as a
very entertaining "game" to play in one's spare time or as a hobby.
Perhaps some people just hate to admit that they are hooked on a really
really cool video game....like I am. :o )
Just imagine how disapointed folks would be with On Top or Elite as far as
eye candy goes...

"What!?!?! I get a really nice panel but only that little square of scenery
to look at?"

;O)

Jay
Dallas
2005-11-03 05:20:08 UTC
Permalink
"Vern"
Post by Vern
...I still think of it as a game though. I cannot claim my flightsim hours
towards my pilot licence and the only reason I, and others, use the program
is purely for the entertainment.
I fly in real life for entertainment, does that make real life flying a
game?


Dallas
Vern
2005-11-08 00:26:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallas
"Vern"
Post by Vern
...I still think of it as a game though. I cannot claim my flightsim
hours
Post by Vern
towards my pilot licence and the only reason I, and others, use the
program
Post by Vern
is purely for the entertainment.
I fly in real life for entertainment, does that make real life flying a
game?
Dallas
You're kidding right? You didn't just ask that question....!
Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)
2005-11-03 13:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Airline pilots train in multi-million pound SIMulators. Its not a real
plane, so does that make it a game they are playing with?

Ibby
Post by Vern
Post by Marcel Kuijper
Post by Jon Silk
Why does the word 'game' cause you guys so much angst?
It's true that some of us take SIMming a little more serious than
others, but that's all part of the realism factor. If you can make it
look real, it can feel real. Therefore it becomes a SIMulation of
life. Hence the preferation of the term "sim" over "game"
...I still think of it as a game though. I cannot claim my flightsim hours
towards my pilot licence and the only reason I, and others, use the program
is purely for the entertainment.
There are other flight simulation programs out there besides those put out
by microsoft that are not games but actual training systems. The hours
spent in them can be legally used towards certain aspects of your licences
and ratings as a pilot. Compared to these, again, I can only see MSFS as a
very entertaining "game" to play in one's spare time or as a hobby.
Perhaps some people just hate to admit that they are hooked on a really
really cool video game....like I am. :o )
Lumpy
2005-11-03 15:26:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)
Airline pilots train in multi-million pound
SIMulators. Its not a real plane, so does
that make it a game they are playing with?
Those simulators aren't made by "MS Game Studios"
and sold for $25 in the game section of target.


Lumpy
--
In Your Ears for 40 Years
http://www.lumpymusic.com
Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)
2005-11-03 15:40:37 UTC
Permalink
I appreciate the comment about costs but its the principle. If something
isn't real and it depicts reality the surely its a sim

Ibby
Post by Lumpy
Post by Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)
Airline pilots train in multi-million pound
SIMulators. Its not a real plane, so does
that make it a game they are playing with?
Those simulators aren't made by "MS Game Studios"
and sold for $25 in the game section of target.
Lumpy
--
In Your Ears for 40 Years
http://www.lumpymusic.com
Lumpy
2005-11-03 21:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)
I appreciate the comment about costs but its the principle. If
something isn't real and it depicts reality the surely its a sim
That's a fair arguement. I guess we'd have to
consider at what point does the software
"depict reality". Going back in versions,
98? One of the early DOS versions? Do
those "depict reality".

We could probably argue the other end of
the scale. To what degree does the gazillion
dollar certified simulators "depict reality"?
In effect, those pilots are "playing a game".
They don't really crash and die and the "plane"
doesn't really leave the ground.

In the abstract, we might argue that a textbook
"depicts reality" and therefore is a simulator.
The book presents "real" flight scenarios and
asks you to make decisions based on the info
at hand.


Lumpy
--
In Your Ears for 40 Years
http://www.lumpymusic.com
Vern
2005-11-08 00:34:17 UTC
Permalink
"Ibby \(The Artist Formerly Known as Chris\)"
Post by Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)
Airline pilots train in multi-million pound SIMulators. Its not a
real plane, so does that make it a game they are playing with?
Ibby
Reread my post!! Those pilots are **not** doing it for their own personal
entertainment, they are training. You can't compare someone that has
voluntarily logged a multitude of hours on MSFS to a pilot that has done
the same in an actual aircraft as a career.

I can't believe that some people actaully get reaaly offended when MSFS is
referred to as a videogame. That in itself is just hilarious.
Beech45Whiskey
2005-11-08 01:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Vern <***@hotmail.moc> wrote:

<snip>
Post by Vern
I can't believe that some people actaully get reaaly offended when MSFS is
referred to as a videogame. That in itself is just hilarious.
The fact that you find this "just hilarious" is what is really hilarious.
--
Peter
























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Vern
2005-11-08 02:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beech45Whiskey
<snip>
Post by Vern
I can't believe that some people actaully get reaaly offended when
MSFS is referred to as a videogame. That in itself is just
hilarious.
The fact that you find this "just hilarious" is what is really
hilarious.
Well here's why I feel thins way...

I used to work for a small cargo airline running exec. jets that had been
converted to haul boxes. We had a guy in dispatch that used to brag to
the guys actualy flying the line about his thousands of hours flying
MSFS. The absolute worst part of it was when the poor buggers would come
back after flying all night in bad wx only to come in and have this joker
thinking he could compare notes with them on the approaches becasue he
flew all of them with the realtime weather he downloaded. Put yourself
in those pilot's shoes having flown ropey appraoches to minimums and then
have this clown trying to tell you that what he did in the comfort and
safety of his own living room was no different. Needless to say he and
his MSFS'ing were the ongoing joke around the company for years.

My point is that when I hear people getting all offended about this
program being called a "game", I just think about that guy I used to work
with and yes...it is hilarious..and just a little sad too.
Beech45Whiskey
2005-11-08 02:32:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vern
Put yourself
in those pilot's shoes having flown ropey appraoches to minimums and then
have this clown trying to tell you that what he did in the comfort and
safety of his own living room was no different. Needless to say he and
his MSFS'ing were the ongoing joke around the company for years.
OK, I can see your point, as yours is certainly an extreme example.

However, I suspect that the majority of people here who object to the
use of the word, "game," are much more pragmatic than this person and
recognize the obvious limitations of "mastering" a computer-based flight
simulator versus that of flying real instrument approaches to minimums.

As someone who played a lot of arcade games in the late 70s and early 80s,
PC-based games in the late 80s, Nintendo, Sega, and Playstation games in
the 90s, and Playstation 2 games with my sons in the present, I certainly
see a difference between a "game" and a simulator.

As an active real-life instrument-rated pilot, MSFS allows me to practice
certain aspects of real life IFR flight. In doing so, I don't accumulate
points, fight bosses to graduate to increasingly difficult levels, nor
solve puzzles. Instead, I am exercising my real world skill that will
hopefully assist in keeping me proficient. That... is simulation.
--
Peter
























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Dallas
2005-11-08 06:48:18 UTC
Permalink
"Beech45Whiskey"
Post by Beech45Whiskey
Instead, I am exercising my real world skill that will
hopefully assist in keeping me proficient. That... is simulation.
I'll score that a win for Peter.


Dallas
Beech45Whiskey
2005-11-08 13:54:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallas
I'll score that a win for Peter.
There are no winners in Usenet.
--
Peter
























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Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)
2005-11-08 14:14:05 UTC
Permalink
You only win when playing a game.

Ibby
Post by Beech45Whiskey
Post by Dallas
I'll score that a win for Peter.
There are no winners in Usenet.
--
Peter
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Beech45Whiskey
2005-11-08 14:41:41 UTC
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"Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)"
Post by Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)
You only win when playing a game.
too-shay.
--
Peter
























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Dallas
2005-11-08 20:12:42 UTC
Permalink
"Ibby
Post by Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)
You only win when playing a game.
Ah yes, but isn't life just a game?



Dallas
Beech45Whiskey
2005-11-08 20:20:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallas
"Ibby
Post by Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)
You only win when playing a game.
Ah yes, but isn't life just a game?
Not a game. It's an expensive full motion simulator.
--
Peter
























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Martin Cowley
2005-11-08 23:53:44 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:12:42 GMT, "Dallas"
Post by Dallas
"Ibby
Post by Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)
You only win when playing a game.
Ah yes, but isn't life just a game?
Dallas
Life is a sexually transmitted disease. It is 100% fatal.
Martin

===============================
Power corrupts. Absolute power is really good fun!!
===============================
Vern
2005-11-08 12:16:31 UTC
Permalink
I drive a car on the highway. Does that mean I am using a simulation a
race car on a track? I could argue that it is but realistically it would
be a matter of opinion.

It's all about what you call it. Whether it's referred to as a game or
sim..it purely designed to entertain. Perhaps in my mind a sim is
something designed exclusively to mimic real life *for a purpose*. The
designers of this game had the sole intent to entertain which means that
they required to adhere to any strict tolerances...other than those of the
loyal fans of the software of course.

I am however happy to hear that you are able to keep the IFR skill sets
sharp thanks to something that costs far less than the certified sims. If
they could on ly get tha sucker certified...think of the money you'd save!!
Beech45Whiskey
2005-11-08 13:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vern
I could argue that it is but realistically it would
be a matter of opinion.
A matter of opinion? Now you are making some sense.
Post by Vern
I am however happy to hear that you are able to keep the IFR skill sets
sharp thanks to something that costs far less than the certified sims.
I am happy that you are happy. Can we all join hands now in a big circle
and sing "Kumbaya Ya, My Lord?"
Post by Vern
If they could on ly get tha sucker certified...think of the money you'd save!!
No need. The sim only incrementally augments my flying skills (as does
reading various aviation books and magazines, and attending safety
seminars); it does not replace the act of flying. Remaining immersed in
aviation away from the cockpit is always a good thing.
--
Peter
























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Vern
2005-11-09 05:15:45 UTC
Permalink
Beech45Whiskey <***@gmail.com> wrote in news:145vdqp5vh94o$***@ID-259643.user.individual.net:

Remaining
immersed in aviation away from the cockpit is always a good thing.
I know what you mean...between my two separate aviation related jobs I also
fly recreationally...oh, and surf aviation related newsgroups too.
Bill Leaming
2005-11-08 16:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vern
My point is that when I hear people getting all offended about this
program being called a "game", I just think about that guy I used to work
with and yes...it is hilarious..and just a little sad too.
Then no doubt you'll be amused to learn that Plane & Pilot (among many
others) is beginning to recognize the value of FS as a familiarization
platform for real life pilot training:

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2005/dec/switching_glass.html

"You can make your transition even easier by obtaining and studying the
avionics simulators, information manuals and training guides before the
first lesson. Garmin has made its GNS 430 simulator available for free
download on its Website (www.garmin.com). The Garmin GNS 430 is the brains
behind the Avidyne FlightMax Entegra system, and if you’re familiar with
the GNS 430, the Garmin G1000 GPS functions are similar. Download the
Garmin GNS 430 simulator and go play. Reality XP, an avionics simulation
company, has made the Garmin GNS 430 simulator work with Microsoft Flight
Simulator 2004 for those who want to practice procedures while maintaining
aircraft control. Eaglesoft, another flight simulator company, has
released models for the Cirrus SR22 and SR20 for Microsoft Flight Simulator
as well. Most pilots give the Eaglesoft simulators high marks for accuracy,
detail and authenticity."

Bill
Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)
2005-11-08 13:14:17 UTC
Permalink
Personally I couldnt really care if its called a game or a sim. I know
'real' pilots aren't playing in these expensive simulators.
I have to ask some of the real airline pilots (like Oscar), does flight-time
in an Airbus Simulator count towards qualifying as a corporate pilot?

Ibby
Post by Vern
Reread my post!! Those pilots are **not** doing it for their own personal
entertainment, they are training. You can't compare someone that has
voluntarily logged a multitude of hours on MSFS to a pilot that has done
the same in an actual aircraft as a career.
I can't believe that some people actaully get reaaly offended when MSFS is
referred to as a videogame. That in itself is just hilarious.
Pancake Lady
2005-11-12 03:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Ok, I'll settle it for ya!

Microsoft says that it is a game, therefore it is a game.

BTW the name of this newsgroup is "alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim.

The Pancake Lady


"Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)"
Post by Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)
Personally I couldnt really care if its called a game or a sim. I know
'real' pilots aren't playing in these expensive simulators.
I have to ask some of the real airline pilots (like Oscar), does
flight-time in an Airbus Simulator count towards qualifying as a corporate
pilot?
Ibby
Post by Vern
Reread my post!! Those pilots are **not** doing it for their own personal
entertainment, they are training. You can't compare someone that has
voluntarily logged a multitude of hours on MSFS to a pilot that has done
the same in an actual aircraft as a career.
I can't believe that some people actaully get reaaly offended when MSFS is
referred to as a videogame. That in itself is just hilarious.
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