Discussion:
Real or Game - Which is better for you?
(too old to reply)
Matt
2006-12-08 18:33:56 UTC
Permalink
SnakeEyes, I didn't want to hijack your thread but this is a take-off from
your original question.

I'd like to paraphrase your question: which would you rather do, do it in
real life or play the game?

My preference... the game. Real life is too expensive, too time consuming,
too much trouble, too dangerous and well.... too real.

I'm speaking as someone who was involved in a real plane crash. I ended up
'landing' in a hospital for about a year for physical rehabilitation and
therapy.
Jose
2006-12-08 18:42:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
I'd like to paraphrase your question: which would you rather do, do it in
real life or play the game?
Real life. Playing a game, when I land in Lincoln Park, I still can't
visit my family. When I land in Seattle, I still can't go to the Boeing
Museum. When I land in Florida, there are no beaches nearby. It's just
not... well... =real=.
Post by Matt
My preference... the game. [...]
I'm speaking as someone who was involved in a real plane crash. I ended up
'landing' in a hospital
How is that different from being involved in a car crash, a fall from a
ladder, or a tropical disease gotten from a vacation trip? Real life
will kill you one day. But since simulated life runs as a child process
of real life, you don't really avoid this just by running the simulator.

You =will= die. After that, there is no more real life. So, get in as
much real life as you can =before= you die.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Slade
2006-12-08 18:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Whoa Jose, bringing in a dose of reality to our virtual world, are you? ;)

I'm not looking forward to cashing in my chips anytime soon.

Slade
Post by Jose
Post by Matt
I'd like to paraphrase your question: which would you rather do, do it in
real life or play the game?
Real life. Playing a game, when I land in Lincoln Park, I still can't
visit my family. When I land in Seattle, I still can't go to the Boeing
Museum. When I land in Florida, there are no beaches nearby. It's just
not... well... =real=.
Post by Matt
My preference... the game. [...]
I'm speaking as someone who was involved in a real plane crash. I ended up
'landing' in a hospital
How is that different from being involved in a car crash, a fall from a
ladder, or a tropical disease gotten from a vacation trip? Real life will
kill you one day. But since simulated life runs as a child process of
real life, you don't really avoid this just by running the simulator.
You =will= die. After that, there is no more real life. So, get in as
much real life as you can =before= you die.
Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Mike Young
2006-12-08 20:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jose
Post by Matt
I'd like to paraphrase your question: which would you rather do, do it in
real life or play the game?
Real life. Playing a game, when I land in Lincoln Park, I still can't
visit my family. When I land in Seattle, I still can't go to the Boeing
Museum. When I land in Florida, there are no beaches nearby. It's just
not... well... =real=.
Post by Matt
My preference... the game. [...]
I'm speaking as someone who was involved in a real plane crash. I ended up
'landing' in a hospital
How is that different from being involved in a car crash, a fall from a
ladder, or a tropical disease gotten from a vacation trip? Real life will
kill you one day. But since simulated life runs as a child process of
real life, you don't really avoid this just by running the simulator.
You =will= die. After that, there is no more real life. So, get in as
much real life as you can =before= you die.
Myself personally, I can bop down to Panama City to help ease the insomnia
before heading off to the office when the sun rises. It sure would be great
to get out of the midwestern cold and onto a warm(er) beach. But, real life
beckons for most of us. Simming is a pasttime. If I could do it for real, I
wouldn't stop on the sandy beaches in FLA, but keep right on going to Rio.

A child process, eh? Nice one; I like it.
Matt
2006-12-08 22:32:45 UTC
Permalink
So, get in as much real life as you can =before= you die.
Jose
Why? You're going to die anyway.
Crash Lander
2006-12-08 23:42:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
So, get in as much real life as you can =before= you die.
Jose
Why? You're going to die anyway.
Speak for yourself! I'm going to live forever!
Crash Lander
Jay Beckman
2006-12-08 23:39:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash Lander
Post by Matt
So, get in as much real life as you can =before= you die.
Jose
Why? You're going to die anyway.
Speak for yourself! I'm going to live forever!
Crash Lander
I know I won't, but I also have a very short list of people I'm going to
haunt for eternity...

Muhahahah...

Jay B
Matt
2006-12-09 02:29:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash Lander
Speak for yourself! I'm going to live forever!
Crash Lander
LOL. Hope you have kids, have written something memorable, or
invented something people will always be grateful for. Absent those,
you can console yourself on the thought that what you write here, in
usenet, will be archived forever.
CRaSH
2006-12-08 23:42:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
So, get in as much real life as you can =before= you die.
Jose
Why? You're going to die anyway.
DOH
Jose
2006-12-09 16:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Why? You're going to die anyway.
"I'm not dead yet!"

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Matt
2006-12-09 19:56:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jose
Post by Matt
Why? You're going to die anyway.
"I'm not dead yet!"
True, but keep in mind that you were heading towards it the moment you
were born.

Hope I'm not pooping too much on your party. It's just that, I, I
have time now, and well ... I don't feel like doing chores or working.
(It's, it's Saturday! ...muttering to himself...)
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 00:58:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jose
Playing a game, when I land in Lincoln Park, I still can't
visit my family.
But turn this around: Playing a game, I don't have to worry about
getting home after I land. I'm not stuck in a hotel for three days
waiting for weather to improve.

I don't like to travel, so flying in real life would mean lots of
travel that I don't want to undertake, or extremely short day trips
that take me to some nearby destination and back in time to go to bed.
Those are not very attractive options.
Post by Jose
When I land in Seattle, I still can't go to the Boeing Museum.
When I land in Seattle, I can shut down the aircraft and eat. I'm not
interested in any museums, so the fact that I'm not really there
doesn't matter.
Post by Jose
When I land in Florida, there are no beaches nearby. It's just
not... well... =real=.
I never go to the beach, so the beaches don't have to be real. I see
them only from thousands of feet up.
Post by Jose
How is that different from being involved in a car crash, a fall from a
ladder, or a tropical disease gotten from a vacation trip?
It isn't, but it's something that cannot happen in a sim.
Post by Jose
So, get in as much real life as you can =before= you die.
What part of simulation isn't real life?
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Jose
2006-12-09 16:55:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
But turn this around: Playing a game, I don't have to worry about
getting home after I land. [...] I don't like to travel
If you don't like to travel (and therefore don't travel), then the
travel advantage of real aircraft is lost on you. It's too bad you
don't like travelling, it's a very enriching experience. Ditto most
travel destinations (at least the ones I travel to!) But I'm not going
to tell people what they ought to like.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Jose
How is that different from being involved in a car crash, a fall from a
ladder, or a tropical disease gotten from a vacation trip?
It isn't, but it's something that cannot happen in a sim.
True. But simming isn't a life substitute. It is one of the activities
done with life, like posting to Usenet, going to the movies, and riding
a bicycle. All of those carry some measure of danger, and some measure
of enjoyment. One chooses based on the enjoyment, and the risk. (And
the need - cleaning the kitchen may not be pleasant but living with rats
is less so). Misunderstanding the risks can induce on to avoid risks
that aren't there. And avoiding some experiences can prevent one from
enjoying other experiences, leading to significant withdrawal and a net
loss. (For example, to enjoy Monty Python, one needs to "get" the
jokes, requring some understanding of British culture, absent which it's
just not funny).
Post by Mxsmanic
What part of simulation isn't real life?
The part where one accepts the simulation as if it were the same as what
it's simulating. Attending a play or watching TV is real life in the
same sense that flying a simulator is real life. However, when one
concludes that watching a bull session on late nite TV is the same as
actually having one with some friends - that's when it isn't real life,
except in the trivial sense.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 17:38:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jose
If you don't like to travel (and therefore don't travel), then the
travel advantage of real aircraft is lost on you. It's too bad you
don't like travelling, it's a very enriching experience.
It's actually good to not like travel, as it is much cheaper and safer
to stay home.
Post by Jose
True. But simming isn't a life substitute.
Neither is life a simming substitute.
Post by Jose
The part where one accepts the simulation as if it were the same as what
it's simulating.
That's the whole purpose of simulation.
Post by Jose
Attending a play or watching TV is real life in the same sense that
flying a simulator is real life.
Ever heard of Method acting?
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Not4wood
2006-12-09 18:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Ever heard of Method acting?
OK we gotcha on that one.

Watching a live performance on TV and being in the audience of a live
"Theater" wathcing them on stage are two completely different things and
experiences.

Emotions, thats what is different. You might enjoy the home settings, but
being there sharing the laughter, sadness etc with the people around you.
The applause of not just you clapping your hands but the whole audience in
applause is a completely new experience for you.

Now we are getting to the bare bones, do you leave your house and go out at
all or are you content in sitting there living in your own imaginary world?

Now comparison time. We have this one friend, who reads everything in site.
Will argue the point, and discuss everything under the sun. Big problem, he
doesnt experience anything. Rarely goes out, doesnt and cant get the point
of speaking to, or meeting new people and living. He would be a perfect
example of a Stalker Mentality. His world is pure fantasy and cant
understand other peoples point of view. What he thinks is other peoples
idea is wrong and will tell people what the life experience should be
instead of actually seeing it with his own eyes. It gets more complicated
than that but you get my drift.

He is wasting his life, not experiencing differing opinions, rationalizing
his own perspective on what he thinks is real without finding out that what
he thinks and what is actuallity is completely different. Truthfully, he
might be right. He might not be able to comprehend that all this time he
was wrong so his mind will make excuses and rationalize as a defence
mechanisim.

Not4wood
Matt
2006-12-09 18:23:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Not4wood
Now comparison time. We have this one friend, who reads everything in site.
Will argue the point, and discuss everything under the sun. Big problem, he
doesnt experience anything. Rarely goes out, doesnt and cant get the point
of speaking to, or meeting new people and living. He would be a perfect
example of a Stalker Mentality. His world is pure fantasy and cant
understand other peoples point of view. What he thinks is other peoples
idea is wrong and will tell people what the life experience should be
instead of actually seeing it with his own eyes. It gets more complicated
than that but you get my drift.
He is wasting his life, not experiencing differing opinions, rationalizing
Interesting. Ok let me give this a shot also.

Physicists. They interact less with real life experiences and yet
they are closer to the truth. I'd say they're more in tune to the
real world than a politician.

The more religious amongst us would probably say the same thing about
cloistered nuns or those introverts in a monastary.

How about Galileo. Almost everyone else in real life (for example, the
King and the Pope who interacted with lots and lots of real life
people) thought he was wrong about the earth not being the center of
the universe.

The old and the infirm. They interact less than the young and yet...
Barrie
2006-12-09 18:23:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Not4wood
Post by Mxsmanic
Ever heard of Method acting?
OK we gotcha on that one.
The more formal term for "Method Acting" is "Stanislavski's Method of
Physical Actions".

I strongly recommend these two books by Sonia Moore:

"The Stanislavski System; the Training of An Actor".
and
"Stanislavski Revealed; The Actor's Guide to Spontaneity on Stage".

OK, where were you? Carry on.

Barrie
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 21:41:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Not4wood
Now we are getting to the bare bones, do you leave your house and go out at
all or are you content in sitting there living in your own imaginary world?
I go out when I have to. I don't have money or time to go out for
leisure. My primary leisure is MSFS, which costs me nothing and does
not require that I leave the apartment (not to mention that it touches
upon one of my continuing interests).
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Jose
2006-12-09 18:41:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
It's actually good to not like travel, as it is much cheaper and safer
to stay home.
It's cheaper and safer to be dead, but I don't see many advocates for
that option. (At least not for themselves!) Your statement comes from
the premise that cheaper and safer are better. All other things being
equal, I'd agree, but all other things are far from equal. "Not knowing
what you're missing" is not fair trade for "going through effort to do
something, and enjoying it". Put another way, lack of pain does not
constitute pleasure and should not be confused with it.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Jose
But simming isn't a life substitute.
Neither is life a simming substitute.
Simming is a subset of life. Different subsets of life =are= simming
substitutes.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Jose
The part where one accepts the simulation as if it were the same as what
it's simulating [is the part that isn't 'real life'].
That's the whole purpose of simulation.
Uh... no. At least not for me. I sim to practice specific procedures
inexpensively, so that when I need them in real life, they are not as
rusty as they otherwise might be. It is a learning tool for me, not a
substitute. I am always aware that it's a sim, but this doesn't
appreciably reduce the value for the training use to which I put it.

So, since I use simulation effectively without accepting it "as if it
were the same as real life", it cannot be "the =whole= purpose of
simulation." It can, however, be the whole purpose to which =you= put
it. That's different.

Simulation need only be "close enough" for one's purposes. For
entertainment, it doesn't even have to be that close. Versimillitude is
sufficient. For training, certain aspects need to be close to reality,
but immersion is not a requirement in most cases. Where it is required
(such as airline training programs), MSFS doesn't even hold a candle.

How about a different approach. It has been argued ("I will presently
argue") that watching a talk show is a good simulation of having some
friends over and talking into the night. In fact, I suspect that late
nite TV talk shows are a substitute for having company over. In real
life, most of the time in a conversation among several people, you are
not the one talking anyway, so TV already simulates 80% or more of the
interaction, and it's much safer (you won't embarras yourself by
blurting out something stupid) and more convenient (you can eat what you
want, when you want, without regard for what the other people are
having). The analogy isn't perfect, but it should be good enough for
discussion. What would you think of watching TV talk shows as a good
substitute for actually having friends over for dinner and conversation?
Post by Mxsmanic
Ever heard of Method acting?
Yes (and it's ironically named). It's one of two "competing" ways of
developing a performance (I don't know what the other is called; it may
not even have a name). Method acting works well up to a point... beyong
that point it can choke itself off I worked with some people for whom
that happened (though they didn't know it) and it adversely affected
their performances.

The premise of method acting is that you must =feel=, in real life, the
emotions that you are portraying on stage. It must all spring from
inside, so that it can be "real" for the audience. It is as opposed to
the "outside-in" method, wherein one works on specific gestures, muscle
movements, whatever, that "look like" the depiction of the emotion. In
that paradigm, the actor needn't feel =anything=, so long as it =looks=
like he is, and by controlling his muscle movements well enough he can
make it look convincing enough.

Real emotions bring forth lots of expressions that just come out
naturally, and to fake it convincingly an "outside-in" actor needs to
micromanage his muscles. The purpose of method acting is to allow the
muscles to work by themselves, in response to a real emotion, to avoid
the need for micromanagement. It works very well.

But...

One needs to actually =have= the emotions to feel them. Method acting
can be taken too far. If one "becomes" the character to the extent that
it protrudes too far into one's offstage existance, it blocks out the
real emotions that one has felt in real life in one's real past,
replacing it with a fake personal history, a fake set of memories upon
which to draw, a fake time period in which one lives.... and then the
(supposed to be real) emotions that one draws upon ON STAGE is coming
from this fake background, instead of one's actual life experience.

This actually defeats the purpose of method acting.

For method acting to work well, the =real= emotions that one has felt in
the actor's =real= past must be available to the actor when he's on
stage. For a good method actor this becomes automatic, sort of like
driving a car without thinking how one is doing it. But if an actor
goes beyond that, "becoming" the character even offstage, then the actor
is out of control, and the performance suffers. And if the actor tries
to =impose= such a simulated life on themselves offstage, the actor
loses touch with their real emotions, and the performance suffers.

In my (real) experience with method actors, those that take it too far
end up looking like they are acting.

Reality, ultimately, is quite useful, and should not be dispensed with. :)

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 21:44:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jose
It's cheaper and safer to be dead, but I don't see many advocates for
that option.
It does show, however, that if someone likes being dead, it's an
advantage for him.
Post by Jose
Your statement comes from the premise that cheaper and safer are better.
No, I'm pointing out that if someone enjoys things that also happen to
be cheap and safe, he's better off than if he enjoys things that
happen to be expensive and dangerous.
Post by Jose
Uh... no. At least not for me. I sim to practice specific procedures
inexpensively, so that when I need them in real life, they are not as
rusty as they otherwise might be. It is a learning tool for me, not a
substitute. I am always aware that it's a sim, but this doesn't
appreciably reduce the value for the training use to which I put it.
I sim for learning and entertainment.
Post by Jose
Where it is required (such as airline training programs), MSFS doesn't
even hold a candle.
MSFS is already used in training programs.
Post by Jose
What would you think of watching TV talk shows as a good
substitute for actually having friends over for dinner and conversation?
I have no opinion, as I do neither of these things.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Jose
2006-12-09 22:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
It does show, however, that if someone likes being dead, it's an
advantage for him.
Can't argue with that!
Post by Mxsmanic
No, I'm pointing out that if someone enjoys things that also happen to
be cheap and safe, he's better off than if he enjoys things that
happen to be expensive and dangerous.
I don't think that's true. For one thing, something that is expensive
requires one to go out and put forth more effort than something that is
inexpensive. That alone affects things. One derives more reward out of
something one has put effort into. Did you ever work hard at something,
and upon accomplishing that task, get real satisfaction out of "I did
that!"? I bet the satisfaction would be much less had it come easily.
Post by Mxsmanic
I sim for learning and entertainment.
For entertainment, it's perfect. As a training tool it is good for some
things, and woefully inadequate for others. It is downright dangerous
for some training purposes.
Post by Mxsmanic
MSFS is already used in training programs.
But it is most assuredly =not= used in situations where high realism is
required. Heck, even cardboard cockpit mockups are used for procedures
training.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Jose
What would you think of watching TV talk shows as a good
substitute for actually having friends over for dinner and conversation?
I have no opinion, as I do neither of these things.
Would you have an opinion if you did -one- of those things?

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Dallas
2006-12-08 20:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
I'm speaking as someone who was involved in a real plane crash.
Interesting. Why don't you tell us what happened? Was it a commercial
flight or general aviation?
--
Post by Matt
Dallas <<<
Matt
2006-12-08 22:26:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dallas
Interesting. Why don't you tell us what happened? Was it a commercial
flight or general aviation?
It was a commercial flight back in the mid 1970's. I was in an inter-island
flight on a Fokker 27 about 13,000 ft up in the air when a real life bomb
exploded (this I found later after I was in a coma for about 2 weeks).
Remember, this was way back before they checked you before you boarded a
plane.

It's a very long story which I've tired of repeating over and over again.
I've had to do many times, especially after I mention that the stay in the
hospital was one of the happiest times in my life. Long story short, you've
probably heard of someone saying you haven't really lived until you've known
death. Well, I can tell you that's true, at least in my case. One of these
days I might detail it here on why that is so. In the meantime, I'm
grateful that I'm able to simfly (and no, please don't think I'm afraid to
fly in real life because of the 'accident'). In fact, I can honestly say
that having been very close to it, I'm not afraid of it anymore (dying),
which terrifies some people close to me. I like flying in real life as a
passenger except that in my case, I can tell you that sim flying is way
better.

An example, have you ever tried flying a Cessna over the Grand Canyon? .In
real life, it's VERY, VERY loud, and very very hot. Feels like 10 hair
dryers blowing in front of you at the same time that you're swaying and
rocking. I was with an English guy at that time who probably wasn't used to
the heat. About 15 minutes into the flight he started throwing up, and I
mean non-stop. After the flight he jumped down the runaway and laid down.
We almost called 911.

That was the 3rd worst real life experience I had, right behind my deep sea
fishing trip several years ago. In this one, I was the one who was
throwing up, which shocked me and embarrassed me to no end, since I can
usually hold my own. But that's another story. Real life is often times
very 'overated' much like when someone says '...in the good old days'...
Really? In the old days there was no Google and no MSFS :-)
SnakeEyes
2006-12-09 00:13:19 UTC
Permalink
Matt wrote:

In fact, I can honestly say
Post by Matt
that having been very close to it, I'm not afraid of it anymore (dying),
which terrifies some people close to me. I
very 'overated' much like when someone says '...in the good old days'...
Really? In the old days there was no Google and no MSFS :-)
(Snipped some very good stuff for brevity)


I, too, was very close to death due to a heart attack which occurred on
a cold, February morning ten years ago. Fortunately, I reached the
hospital in time, and the most excellent doctors pulled me through. At
that time, I never even considered that I could die until a while
afterwards, when a doctor told me I had been close. To be very honest,
the thought of having a recurrence and dying scares the hell out of me,
and I do everything I can in my power to help myself so it won't happen
again. There is so much to live for, I cannot possibly take the band
width to give you my thoughts on the matter.

Insofar as this 'game' as you call it (I prefer to call it a
simulation), I consider it a miracle of modern technology. Each time I
use it, I marvel at its ability to transpose my quite ordinary room
into the cockpit of an airliner which can be programmed to go anywhere
in the world, night or day, through unimaginable weather conditions
during all four seasons. I enjoy it so much, it is one of only three
interests in my life besides living, and those are photography and a
bit of writing. I will never tire of it, nor will I spend too much
money on it. Yes, I will compalin about it, but that's just one other
element.

On the other hand, if I have the chance given to me to fly somewhere,
either in a private plane or commercial one, I would take it in one of
my precious heartbeats. I know this is very unlikely although I'm
hoping to go on a vacation next spring which will give me a flight in
something.....but that something is rare.....very rare.

The flight simulator is always there for me, to experience anytime I
please. So, in answer to your question, I prefer to use the sim
because of that reason, and to fly in real life when the opportunity
arises. God willing, neither will claim my life, but if it does, I
will be content at the time.

SnakeEyes
Crash Lander
2006-12-09 01:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by SnakeEyes
I, too, was very close to death due to a heart attack which occurred on
a cold, February morning ten years ago. Fortunately, I reached the
hospital in time, and the most excellent doctors pulled me through. At
that time, I never even considered that I could die until a while
afterwards, when a doctor told me I had been close. To be very honest,
the thought of having a recurrence and dying scares the hell out of me,
and I do everything I can in my power to help myself so it won't happen
again. There is so much to live for, I cannot possibly take the band
width to give you my thoughts on the matter.
I came down with a mystery illness about 9 years ago. The hospital couldn't
decide on what it was. Best guesses ended up with Glandular Fever. My
temperature started to rise to the point that they were preparing ice baths
to try and cool me. Apparently I was 1 degree Celcius away from having my
spleen removed. The hospital telephoned my mother and told her to come to
the hospital because they didn't expect me to make it though the night. I
had a 'dream' which I consider my near death experience. It involved a
choice of a path. The paths on offer led to 3 different possibilities for
me. 1 was full recovery, 1 was life, but nobody would recognise me as me
(ie: I would be a vegetable but alive)
and the third was death. The paths were not paths as such, but tubes rising
above me, with a ladder in each one, almost like what you'd see if you were
in an underground drainage system. The other little twist about this
experience was that I knew what the 3 options were, but I didn't know which
path was which. I chose one, and well, here I am. The next day I woke up
showing some improvement, much to the surprise of the medical staff. I also
remember something about a bus I couldn't get off, but I'm unsure where that
actually fitted into the scheme of things. Some people say this was all just
a dream, but I believe it was a real choice I made.
Post by SnakeEyes
Insofar as this 'game' as you call it (I prefer to call it a
simulation),
Nice save SE! You don't realise how close to death you just came! ;-) ::puts
away his shot gun he uses on people that call MSFS a game::

Crash Lander
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 01:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by SnakeEyes
The flight simulator is always there for me, to experience anytime I
please.
Have you tried VATSIM or other online flying networks?
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
CRaSH
2006-12-09 00:59:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Post by Dallas
Interesting. Why don't you tell us what happened? Was it a
commercial flight or general aviation?
It was a commercial flight back in the mid 1970's. I was in an
inter-island flight on a Fokker 27 about 13,000 ft up in the air when
a real life bomb exploded (this I found later after I was in a coma
for about 2 weeks). Remember, this was way back before they checked
you before you boarded a plane.
Gee, Google can't find a Fokker 27 accident (at least that amounted to
anything) in the decade of the 70's, unless you happened to have been on a
leased Pakistan Airlines airplane used by the Pakistan military in 1971...
What'd they miss??
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 01:18:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by CRaSH
Gee, Google can't find a Fokker 27 accident (at least that amounted to
anything) in the decade of the 70's, unless you happened to have been on a
leased Pakistan Airlines airplane used by the Pakistan military in 1971...
What'd they miss??
I wasn't aware of any online database that catalogs every single air
accident in history. Where did you look?
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Matt
2006-12-09 03:03:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by CRaSH
Gee, Google can't find a Fokker 27 accident (at least that amounted to
anything) in the decade of the 70's, unless you happened to have been on a
leased Pakistan Airlines airplane used by the Pakistan military in 1971...
What'd they miss??
I tried researching that too but couldn't find it either. It was in a
Phillipine Airlines plane. Keep in mind that this was way before the
Internet. I've found an article about it in my college library 20 or
so years ago. It was in a microfiche of several newspapers for that
period.

I'm not sure if it's officially categorized as a plane crash because
we crash landed on an airport in a small island (by luck, I was told
later, and a good one too because otherwise we would have crashed in
very shark infested waters). The only reason why the plane didn't
fall off the sky was because the bomb exploded in the middle of the
plane cabin which left a hole about the size of a bed and the F27 has
it's wings on top. The guy in front of me had his seatbelt on which
was the only thing that prevented him from being sucked out of the
plane. I didn't have my seat belt on and ironically that saved my
life because the impact threw me to the aisle. The remaining seats
prevented me from being sucked out.

Question: if a plane makes it to the airport or if the accident
happens in an airport (say a collision between two planes in which
many people die) is that considered a plane crash?
Jay Beckman
2006-12-09 03:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Post by CRaSH
Gee, Google can't find a Fokker 27 accident (at least that amounted to
anything) in the decade of the 70's, unless you happened to have been on a
leased Pakistan Airlines airplane used by the Pakistan military in 1971...
What'd they miss??
I tried researching that too but couldn't find it either. It was in a
Phillipine Airlines plane. Keep in mind that this was way before the
Internet. I've found an article about it in my college library 20 or
so years ago. It was in a microfiche of several newspapers for that
period.
I'm not sure if it's officially categorized as a plane crash because
we crash landed on an airport in a small island (by luck, I was told
later, and a good one too because otherwise we would have crashed in
very shark infested waters). The only reason why the plane didn't
fall off the sky was because the bomb exploded in the middle of the
plane cabin which left a hole about the size of a bed and the F27 has
it's wings on top. The guy in front of me had his seatbelt on which
was the only thing that prevented him from being sucked out of the
plane. I didn't have my seat belt on and ironically that saved my
life because the impact threw me to the aisle. The remaining seats
prevented me from being sucked out.
Question: if a plane makes it to the airport or if the accident
happens in an airport (say a collision between two planes in which
many people die) is that considered a plane crash?
List of Fokker 27 "Friendship" accidents:

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/aircraft_detail.cgi?aircraft=Fokker+F-27+Friendship

Jay B
CRaSH
2006-12-09 04:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay Beckman
http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/aircraft_detail.cgi?aircraft=Fokker+F-27+Friendship
ROTFLMAO

People - can you not be tell when you're being trolled/conned?????????????

This facade is ludicrous!!!!!!!!

mxtt = PLONK
w***@gmail.com
2006-12-09 04:25:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by CRaSH
Post by Jay Beckman
http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/aircraft_detail.cgi?aircraft=Fokker+F-27+Friendship
ROTFLMAO
People - can you not be tell when you're being trolled/conned?????????????
This facade is ludicrous!!!!!!!!
mxtt = PLONK
Alrighty. I've been trolled. I'm back to lurk mode. Not sure why I
bothered to post in the first place, quite honestly.

--Walt

--Walt
boB
2006-12-09 09:46:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@gmail.com
Alrighty. I've been trolled. I'm back to lurk mode. Not sure why I
bothered to post in the first place, quite honestly.
--Walt
--Walt
Hey Walt. I'm glad you posted. I don't recall meeting a Walt Weaver
but I'm sure we crossed paths somewhere even if only at Mother Rucker.
--
boB
copter.six


U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas
5NM West of Gray Army/Killeen Regional (KGRK)
w***@gmail.com
2006-12-09 16:52:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by boB
Post by w***@gmail.com
Alrighty. I've been trolled. I'm back to lurk mode. Not sure why I
bothered to post in the first place, quite honestly.
--Walt
--Walt
Hey Walt. I'm glad you posted. I don't recall meeting a Walt Weaver
but I'm sure we crossed paths somewhere even if only at Mother Rucker.
--
boB
copter.six
U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas
5NM West of Gray Army/Killeen Regional (KGRK)
Never made it to Mother Rucker, boB. I was in the Air Force, fixed wing
gunship, AC119K, 18th SOS.
Matt
2006-12-09 04:40:18 UTC
Permalink
O
Post by CRaSH
People - can you not be tell when you're being trolled/conned?????????????
This facade is ludicrous!!!!!!!!
A doubting Thomas!

What would it take to have you beeeelieve???

Christ died in the cross, and yet, thousands of years later, the best
he could do is have maybe what, half of the planet believe in him?
And he is God.

Do you want me to perform a miracle too? Sorry, couldn't help
myself... ;-)

Frankly, I could care less if you believe me or not. If you promise
to buy me a Reality XP gauge, then and only then will I be motivated
to make you believe. Make it worth for me! :-)
CRaSH
2006-12-09 05:03:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
A doubting Thomas!
What would it take to have you beeeelieve???
Christ died in the cross, and yet, thousands of years later, the best
he could do is have maybe what, half of the planet believe in him?
And he is God.
Do you want me to perform a miracle too? Sorry, couldn't help
myself... ;-)
Frankly, I could care less if you believe me or not. If you promise
to buy me a Reality XP gauge, then and only then will I be motivated
to make you believe. Make it worth for me! :-)
OK Anthony, calm down, breath deeply.. I'm sure France has treatments for
your condition, what ever the hell that is. IF you're even in France.
Matt
2006-12-09 05:13:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by CRaSH
Post by Matt
A doubting Thomas!
What would it take to have you beeeelieve???
Christ died in the cross, and yet, thousands of years later, the best
he could do is have maybe what, half of the planet believe in him?
And he is God.
Do you want me to perform a miracle too? Sorry, couldn't help
myself... ;-)
Frankly, I could care less if you believe me or not. If you promise
to buy me a Reality XP gauge, then and only then will I be motivated
to make you believe. Make it worth for me! :-)
OK Anthony, calm down, breath deeply.. I'm sure France has treatments for
your condition, what ever the hell that is. IF you're even in France.
Heh, bored? Being a Friday night (hint on my location ... let's play
a game Sherlock) I have time to spare. How may I entertain you?
Want to troll me some more... let's have fun!
Matt
2006-12-09 03:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Question: if a plane makes it to the airport or if the accident
happens in an airport (say a collision between two planes in which
many people die) is that considered a plane crash?
Found it! Being the curious sort I thought I'd try again. Never
underestimate the power of Google. No it wasn't in the mid 70's. It
was in fact in 1970, June 2 to be exact.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19700602-0&lang=en

The hand grenade thrower was the person who sat beside me. Not sure
why they categorized the airplane as minor though. Also, they didn't
count the 2 who died from injuries several weeks later. One of them
was a boy of about 10. Also, his dad is the one fatality listed. His
body was almost sucked out except for the seatbelt that he was
wearing.

Another unreported story. There was a mother whose leg was ultimately
amputated after many months of trying to save it. She also had a son
who succumbed to his injuries a few weeks after the 'accident'.
Turned out she was pregnant and gave birth to a baby son almost 9
months after the accident. Unfortunately, this was after her husband
left her, a few weeks after the accident and after the older son died.
Many years later, I found out that she committed suicide.
CRaSH
2006-12-09 04:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Found it! Being the curious sort I thought I'd try again. Never
underestimate the power of Google. No it wasn't in the mid 70's. It
was in fact in 1970, June 2 to be exact.
Golly, and after a year in the hospital you couldn't remember whether it was
the mid 70's
or 1970. That was tramatic!
Matt
2006-12-09 04:57:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by CRaSH
Post by Matt
Found it! Being the curious sort I thought I'd try again. Never
underestimate the power of Google. No it wasn't in the mid 70's. It
was in fact in 1970, June 2 to be exact.
Golly, and after a year in the hospital you couldn't remember whether it was
the mid 70's
or 1970. That was tramatic!
Ever wonder what a hand grenade does to a human body? I've probably
been closer to death than 99.999% of everyone who ever lived.
CRaSH
2006-12-09 05:09:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Ever wonder what a hand grenade does to a human body? I've probably
been closer to death than 99.999% of everyone who ever lived.
I've had a 38 through the neck at point blank range, and left in a ditch for
dead, and I can give you EXACT time and date, with a police report, not plus
or minus half a decade........ Put that in your pipe and smoke it
dickhead.......
Matt
2006-12-09 05:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by CRaSH
Post by Matt
Ever wonder what a hand grenade does to a human body? I've probably
been closer to death than 99.999% of everyone who ever lived.
I've had a 38 through the neck at point blank range, and left in a ditch for
dead, and I can give you EXACT time and date, with a police report, not plus
or minus half a decade........ Put that in your pipe and smoke it
dickhead.......
Why the hostility? Did that traumatize you and make you hate the
world? I'm leading an exciting life and have never been one to look
back much. Anyway, if it makes you a happy.... yeah, I'm a dickhead.
Anything else?
CRaSH
2006-12-09 05:25:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Post by CRaSH
Post by Matt
Ever wonder what a hand grenade does to a human body? I've probably
been closer to death than 99.999% of everyone who ever lived.
I've had a 38 through the neck at point blank range, and left in a
ditch for dead, and I can give you EXACT time and date, with a
police report, not plus or minus half a decade........ Put that in
your pipe and smoke it dickhead.......
Why the hostility? Did that traumatize you and make you hate the
world? I'm leading an exciting life and have never been one to look
back much. Anyway, if it makes you a happy.... yeah, I'm a dickhead.
Anything else?
Yeah, and this time I'll actually do it before double checking posts:

[PLONK]
Matt
2006-12-09 05:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by CRaSH
Post by Matt
Post by CRaSH
Post by Matt
Ever wonder what a hand grenade does to a human body? I've probably
been closer to death than 99.999% of everyone who ever lived.
I've had a 38 through the neck at point blank range, and left in a
ditch for dead, and I can give you EXACT time and date, with a
police report, not plus or minus half a decade........ Put that in
your pipe and smoke it dickhead.......
Why the hostility? Did that traumatize you and make you hate the
world? I'm leading an exciting life and have never been one to look
back much. Anyway, if it makes you a happy.... yeah, I'm a dickhead.
Anything else?
[PLONK]
I'll miss you CRaSH. But remember, it's not your fault that a 38 was
pointed at you at point blank range, and that they left you in a
ditch for dead, and that you can still remember the EXACT time and
date.

Shit happens in real life and sometimes that's just the way it is.
It's not that shit happened to you, it's how you recover from it which
counts (my suggestion, perhaps changing your nickname to sometime more
positive is a good place to start?).
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 01:02:20 UTC
Permalink
Real life is often times very 'overated' ...
Very often true. The problem is that the pleasant real-life
experiences are often inextricably linked to the unpleasant ones.

For example, the idea of visiting a foreign place does have a certain
appeal to me. But in real life, it is impossible to _just_ visit a
foreign place. You have to travel, for hours or days, and you have to
stay in places that are often uncomfortable and unpleasant, and you
often get sick or tired, and you cannot do what you want when you
want. All in all, at least in my case, it adds up to a net loss. If
I could push a button to be somewhere, I might travel, but as long as
it requires all the other stuff, I'll pass.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Matt
2006-12-09 03:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
want. All in all, at least in my case, it adds up to a net loss. If
Yep, you took the words right out of my mouth. I'm always doing that.
Say dating a gorgeous girl is 8 points of pleasure. Using MSFS is
only 3 points. However, it takes 6 points to get the former. Guess
which one I end up doing?
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 03:42:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Yep, you took the words right out of my mouth. I'm always doing that.
Say dating a gorgeous girl is 8 points of pleasure. Using MSFS is
only 3 points. However, it takes 6 points to get the former. Guess
which one I end up doing?
I don't know, but I'll take MSFS over a date any day. Right now
VATSIM is buzzing with controllers and flights--it's a great evening
to fly.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
w***@gmail.com
2006-12-09 03:58:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Post by Mxsmanic
want. All in all, at least in my case, it adds up to a net loss. If
Yep, you took the words right out of my mouth. I'm always doing that.
Say dating a gorgeous girl is 8 points of pleasure. Using MSFS is
only 3 points. However, it takes 6 points to get the former. Guess
which one I end up doing?
I'm sorry to hear you say that, Matt. You're agreeing with someone
(Mxs) who is scared to death of leaving his apartment.

36 years ago I took the challenge and risk of meeting and spending time
with an absolutely gorgeous woman. We've been married now for 35 years.

Life is full of risks. Immediately after being married I went to
Vietnam to fly a gunship; she, at 19 years, bought a ticket and flew to
Bangkok to be closer to me and had an experience that changed her life,
since before that she had never left her home state. And yes, for the
most part it was a good experience.

28 years ago we had a daughter, who spent her whole life battling
physical problems and passed away this last July. She never tried to
shy away from life and lived her short life as well as she could.

Today I fly both a power plane and a glider. I enjoy playing with MSFS
and it's fun, but there's no substitute for the real thing. I fly all
over Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming, and I can't imagine "pre-flying" a
flight on MSFS before I go somewhere. Nowadays I'm strictly a VFR
pilot, and if I fly somewhere new it's more fun to flight plan, grab a
sectional, check the weather, and GO.

Maybe it's Zen thing. "To travel hopefully is better than to arrive".

I think Mary Schafer had a pretty good quote about people who insist on
perfect safety, but it escapes me right now...

Anyway, I'm sorry about your experience in the Fokker. I've been
through a few crashes myself, although I got out with just a few
scratches and burns.

There are some people who aren't able to get out and enjoy the risks
and rewards that life has to offer; perhaps Mxs is one of those, and if
so then I apologize for what I said and I hope he keeps learning more
about life as best he can. But, if Mxs is too scared to leave his
apartment, even though he can, then I just feel sorry for him.

--Walt
Bozeman, Montana
Matt
2006-12-09 04:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@gmail.com
36 years ago I took the challenge and risk of meeting and spending time
with an absolutely gorgeous woman. We've been married now for 35 years.
I was pretty 'wild' before and after the accident. In fact, I
seriously didn't think I'd live past 25.

Guess what, I ended up marrying someone who was summa cum laude in her
class (yes she does use eye glasses and no she isn't ugly, far from
it -- but people just get intimidated nonetheless).

I met her after my accident. Guess wha, she was from a convent
school and wanted to become a Catholic nun. My friends couldn't
understand why I wanted to go out with such a woman. One friend, who
was from a very prominent family, who was in the same college I was in
(he was about 30 years old then, and, the only reason he was still in
school was to pick up college 'chicks') was especially puzzled. One
day he asked me ".... why are you going out with this chick? Don't
you get a headache when you talk to her...!?"

Well I've been married with this chick now for over 25 years.... and
perhaps still running scared that lightning would strike me for
having stolen from the nunnery... :-)
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 04:57:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@gmail.com
I'm sorry to hear you say that, Matt. You're agreeing with someone
(Mxs) who is scared to death of leaving his apartment.
I'm not afraid to leave the apartment; it's just that I can't afford
it, so I only go out for work or other necessary tasks.
Post by w***@gmail.com
Maybe it's Zen thing. "To travel hopefully is better than to arrive".
Maybe it's just personal preference.
Post by w***@gmail.com
I think Mary Schafer had a pretty good quote about people who insist on
perfect safety, but it escapes me right now...
The FAA has some pretty good quotes on people who are always looking
for adventure.
Post by w***@gmail.com
Anyway, I'm sorry about your experience in the Fokker. I've been
through a few crashes myself, although I got out with just a few
scratches and burns.
A few crashes? Sounds like a lot more than average.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Jay Honeck
2006-12-09 01:23:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
An example, have you ever tried flying a Cessna over the Grand Canyon? .In
real life, it's VERY, VERY loud, and very very hot. Feels like 10 hair
dryers blowing in front of you at the same time that you're swaying and
rocking. I was with an English guy at that time who probably wasn't used to
the heat. About 15 minutes into the flight he started throwing up, and I
mean non-stop. After the flight he jumped down the runaway and laid down.
We almost called 911.
While that sounds truly awful, please don't judge the experience on the
basis of that single flight. I *have* flown my own aircraft over the
Grand Canyon, spending over an hour hovering in awe above that amazing
landscape, and it was an almost religious experience for my wife, kids,
and myself.

There was no turbulence, no heat -- only hundreds of square miles of
the most sublime scenery anyone has ever seen, taken in from a
God's-eye view enjoyed by few. It truly was one of the top five things
I've ever done in my life, and I would do it again tomorrow, if it
weren't so danged far away from Iowa!

To answer the original question, real life flying is something that
simply cannot be beat. As pleased as I am with the fantastically
realistic performance of our Kiwi flight simulator, it doesn't come
close to producing the thrill of real-life flying.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
Matt
2006-12-09 02:39:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay Honeck
While that sounds truly awful, please don't judge the experience on the
basis of that single flight. I *have* flown my own aircraft over the
Point taken. I wish I'd have another opportunity to disprove the
experience, and in fact I'm pretty sure that I can have the pleasant
experience as what you had if I put enough effort in getting the
desirable experience, but since I don't fly for a living, don't live
near the Grand Canyon, etc and more importantly, have better things to
do that can give me more bang for the 'buck', it's just too much
trouble otherwise.

I do understand what your are saying however.
boB
2006-12-09 09:25:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
An example, have you ever tried flying a Cessna over the Grand Canyon? .In
real life, it's VERY, VERY loud, and very very hot. Feels like 10 hair
dryers blowing in front of you at the same time that you're swaying and
rocking. I was with an English guy at that time who probably wasn't used to
the heat. About 15 minutes into the flight he started throwing up, and I
mean non-stop. After the flight he jumped down the runaway and laid down.
We almost called 911.
What part of the Canyon was that? And which runway did he kiss?
--
Bob
Matt
2006-12-09 17:54:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by boB
Post by Matt
An example, have you ever tried flying a Cessna over the Grand Canyon? .In
real life, it's VERY, VERY loud, and very very hot. Feels like 10 hair
dryers blowing in front of you at the same time that you're swaying and
rocking. I was with an English guy at that time who probably wasn't used to
the heat. About 15 minutes into the flight he started throwing up, and I
mean non-stop. After the flight he jumped down the runaway and laid down.
We almost called 911.
What part of the Canyon was that? And which runway did he kiss?
Honestly, I don't remember. I don't keep a diary and probably because
of my life experiences, I just don't keep track of what happened to
me. Perhaps also because I'm overloaded with info (computer stuff
from pc's to mainframes, it's how I bring home the bacon).

CRaSH had a hypothesis that since I didn't remember exactly when my
plane crash was, ergo, it was all just bullshit on my part. The
problem with that fallacious conclusion is that, at this very moment,
I don't remember also when our wedding anniversary is, but yet I know
that there's a woman in the living room now decorating a Christmas
tree, and I know that I'm married to her.

What I can remember is that the airport was about half an hour away
from Las Vegas. Also, we flew over that part of the Canyon where they
filmed a portion of that movie 'Thelma and Louise'. I didn't pay
much attention to it because it looked just like any other part of the
Grand Canyon. Our mistake was that we did that trip in August which
was very hot.
RandyL
2006-12-09 00:47:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi Matt,
I would prefer to fly in "real life". Unfortunately, it is just so
freaking expensive, that I don't fly nearly as often as I would like to. I
totally agree that it is "less expensive" to fly a PC. But I don't agree
that it is "too time consuming". Yes, it does take more time than a flight
on the PC, but thats just part of flying real aircraft. Anything that one
does in real life winds up being time consuming, compared to what you can do
on a PC. I'm not sure what you mean by "more trouble". The procedures that
one has to follow to fly a real aircraft are just the price that you pay for
the privelege of flying a real aircraft. Too dangerous? I drive the
interstate almost every day to and from work with 5,000 other cars, all
bumper-to-bumper, at between 0 mph and 70 mph or faster. I consider doing
that MUCH more dangerous. Yes, accidents happen in aircraft. But
statistically, you are safer in an airplane than you are in a car on the
interstate or freeway during rush hour. Too real? Well, there is no "Pause"
button in a real aircraft, but what would be the challenge of that? Flying
real aircraft is very challenging, and also very rewarding. The few hours a
year that I spend in the cockpit of a real airplane are more precious to me
than the hundreds of hours that I spend at work. Flying a real aircraft is
supposed to be real. It had better be real, or one will wind up in a tangled
mass of flaming metal.
Do you want to know the biggest reason why I decided to get my pilots
license? For tens of thousands of years, no human being has been able to
fly. Not even the richest, the strongest, or the smartest. Human beings just
did not have the capability up until a few decades ago. When I fly an
airplane, I am doing something that Leonardo DaVinci could only dream about.
I am doing something that Julius Cesar could only dream about. I am doing
something that Alexander The Great could only dream about. I am not rich, or
powerful, or famous - and I never will be. But I am able to do something
that 99% of all of the people on this planet who came before me were unable
to do no matter how much the wanted to. I was lucky enough to be born in a
time when an average, ordinary, completely common person - in other words
someone like me - is able to fly. It makes me feel good. Take care...

Randy L.
--
"When making an emergency off-field
landing at night, turn on the landing lights
just prior to touchdown.
If you don't like what you see, then turn
off the landing lights."
Post by Matt
SnakeEyes, I didn't want to hijack your thread but this is a take-off from
your original question.
I'd like to paraphrase your question: which would you rather do, do it in
real life or play the game?
My preference... the game. Real life is too expensive, too time consuming,
too much trouble, too dangerous and well.... too real.
I'm speaking as someone who was involved in a real plane crash. I ended up
'landing' in a hospital for about a year for physical rehabilitation and
therapy.
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 01:07:55 UTC
Permalink
The procedures that one has to follow to fly a real aircraft
are just the price that you pay for the privelege of flying
a real aircraft.
Apparently the "privilege" doesn't justify the price, because hardly
anyone these days is willing to pay it. There are very few private
pilots.
But statistically, you are safer in an airplane than you are in a car on the
interstate or freeway during rush hour.
This isn't entirely true.

You're safer on a commercial, scheduled flight aboard a large airliner
with a major airline. However, in a private plane, you are in much
greater danger--about 100 times more danger. That's what the
statistics actually say. When you hear people saying that air travel
is safe, they are talking about those scheduled commercial flights on
United or Northwest aboard a 757, not bouncing around in a tiny
private plane.
Well, there is no "Pause" button in a real aircraft, but what
would be the challenge of that?
Given that GA aircraft have no toilets, either, I can see good use for
a pause button.
The few hours a
year that I spend in the cockpit of a real airplane are more precious to me
than the hundreds of hours that I spend at work.
Almost all my time is more precious to me than the time I waste at
work.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
boB
2006-12-09 09:34:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Apparently the "privilege" doesn't justify the price, because hardly
anyone these days is willing to pay it. There are very few private
pilots.
You're safer on a commercial, scheduled flight aboard a large airliner
with a major airline. However, in a private plane, you are in much
greater danger--about 100 times more danger. That's what the
statistics actually say. When you hear people saying that air travel
is safe, they are talking about those scheduled commercial flights on
United or Northwest aboard a 757, not bouncing around in a tiny
private plane.
Almost all my time is more precious to me than the time I waste at
work.
You just don't have the fever MX. For some it's a dream come true to be
in the air. And in the US, costing less than a used motorcycle, anyone
can be flying within a couple weeks, actually less than that, in a fully
enclosed ultralight.

You're not going to visit Auntie Edna in Davenport in the UL, but you
are flying.
--
boB
copter.six
Crash Lander
2006-12-09 09:58:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by boB
You just don't have the fever MX. For some it's a dream come true to be
in the air. And in the US, costing less than a used motorcycle, anyone
can be flying within a couple weeks, actually less than that, in a fully
enclosed ultralight.
You're not going to visit Auntie Edna in Davenport in the UL, but you
are flying.
Well, you could, but you'll just be a little late for dinner!
--
Crash Lander
I'm not always right, But I'm never wrong.
Jay Honeck
2006-12-09 12:33:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by boB
You just don't have the fever MX. For some it's a dream come true to be
in the air. And in the US, costing less than a used motorcycle, anyone
can be flying within a couple weeks, actually less than that, in a fully
enclosed ultralight.
You're wasting your breath -- MX simply can't be convinced that flying
is affordable in the US. This despite the fact that our first plane
cost less than my Ford conversion van -- and that there are tens of
millions of Americans who spend more on golf each year than I do
flying.

Both my wife and I are pilots, and we fly a LOT. It's not as cheap as,
say, going to the public library, or flying MSFS -- but it *is*
affordable for the vast majority of Americans, if they choose to follow
their dream.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
Not4wood
2006-12-09 14:02:44 UTC
Permalink
First thing, in Alaska where roads if they have them are frozen over, almost
every house we've seen had a small piper cub or super cub in the backyard.
All had floats and the houses were on the edge of rivers. Some had one at
least in the water and one or two more on the back yard. Really different
from seeing cars in the car ports were several would in parts in the back
yard.

Now as far as living life, its way too short. I was lucky, I had slipped
backwards and fell off a roof on a tenth floor building. I was freefall and
was able to grab on and my friends and coworkers were able to pull me back
in. I knew people who died alone in there apartment because of a fall or
something stupid and they werent able to get help or contact anyone. You
either live life and enjoy as much as you can because there are only a few
give me's in life. Taxes and Death are two that you cant get away from.
Experiencing as much as we can in life, is really the answer to the "Real
Question" of what is life. Traveling, speaking to new people in those
places and getting there feelings about living there is really what lifes
about. Helping people, in as many assorted ways as there is one can say
that this gives pleasure over all others.

There are a lot of personal reasons why someone doesnt travel or fly/or
learn to fly. Money, time etc. Either way its up to them really, which way
to go. There is no right or wrong just whats good for oneself. Discussion
about or arguing about why should someone not do something or try to get out
and do it is actually getting out of hand. All of us here are here for the
enjoyment of aviation. Period. We all have that in common and mostly LOL
enjoy each others company.

MX the reason this is getting out of hand is you are on a soapbox and come
across as trying to be a know-it-all without experiencing real life. It
might fool some, but here where we go out and try to live life as much as we
can and whats good for us in individual ways. We can see through the bull
real fast.

Funny, we (real life) have these friends which shall remain nameless ( I can
see the fireworks now If I get caught LOL) do almost the same thing. The
wife was an honor student who I knew from High School and thought she was
better than everybody because she had better grades. Had no friends or had
no time for friends and didnt hang out. Had her face in the books and was
able to recite anything from the books. Now that she married another friend
of mine from way back she still feels that she is better because she was an
honor student, but has done nothing worthy after high school. They travel a
little now, but only because he pushes. Life is not high school. After
high school you first have to live life with what they taught you. This
lady, has had one job for 20 twenty something years and was lucky. I have
had several careers and a lifetime of experiences in each one. If her
company or job position would disappear she would be lost and probably have
a breakdown. Get my comparison?

Its not what you know MX, its the way you go about doing it and trying to
get a rise out of everybody that they seem to be turning on your know-it-all
tude. Your coming across as knowing more about this subject by sitting home
and reading than somebody that goes out and does it for real. No Comparison
for book learning to a real life experience. Go out and do something then
come back here and discuss it.

Sorry for my rant M8's but this was getting way out of hand. Normally calm
people were getting a little nasty and looked liked the blood pressure
levels were going up.

Mark G
Not4wood
Post by Jay Honeck
Post by boB
You just don't have the fever MX. For some it's a dream come true to be
in the air. And in the US, costing less than a used motorcycle, anyone
can be flying within a couple weeks, actually less than that, in a fully
enclosed ultralight.
You're wasting your breath -- MX simply can't be convinced that flying
is affordable in the US. This despite the fact that our first plane
cost less than my Ford conversion van -- and that there are tens of
millions of Americans who spend more on golf each year than I do
flying.
Both my wife and I are pilots, and we fly a LOT. It's not as cheap as,
say, going to the public library, or flying MSFS -- but it *is*
affordable for the vast majority of Americans, if they choose to follow
their dream.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 14:37:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Not4wood
First thing, in Alaska where roads if they have them are frozen over, almost
every house we've seen had a small piper cub or super cub in the backyard.
All had floats and the houses were on the edge of rivers. Some had one at
least in the water and one or two more on the back yard. Really different
from seeing cars in the car ports were several would in parts in the back
yard.
How can you use an aircraft on floats if everything is frozen over?
Post by Not4wood
This lady, has had one job for 20 twenty something years and was lucky.
I have had several careers and a lifetime of experiences in each one. If her
company or job position would disappear she would be lost and probably have
a breakdown. Get my comparison?
Yes. You've had to spend a large part of your life working to pay the
bills, and she has spent a large part of her life having someone else
pay the bills for her. She may simply be smart, rather than lucky.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Not4wood
2006-12-09 14:50:16 UTC
Permalink
I was there in July, and all the waters were rushing past real fast. Alaska
is not a snow covered frost bitten place all year round.

We didnt see roads but rivers, and all the houses we saw had planes in the
back yard. Mostly more than one.

Not4wood
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Not4wood
First thing, in Alaska where roads if they have them are frozen over, almost
every house we've seen had a small piper cub or super cub in the backyard.
All had floats and the houses were on the edge of rivers. Some had one at
least in the water and one or two more on the back yard. Really different
from seeing cars in the car ports were several would in parts in the back
yard.
How can you use an aircraft on floats if everything is frozen over?
Post by Not4wood
This lady, has had one job for 20 twenty something years and was lucky.
I have had several careers and a lifetime of experiences in each one. If her
company or job position would disappear she would be lost and probably have
a breakdown. Get my comparison?
Yes. You've had to spend a large part of your life working to pay the
bills, and she has spent a large part of her life having someone else
pay the bills for her. She may simply be smart, rather than lucky.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 15:37:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Not4wood
We didnt see roads but rivers, and all the houses we saw had planes in the
back yard. Mostly more than one.
How many of the people flying are licensed?
--
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Not4wood
2006-12-09 17:43:23 UTC
Permalink
Considering I have not spoken to any of them at all, you know what happens
when you assume. But I would have to say all of them. They are very good
neighbors and help one another when the weather gets so bad and you need
supplies. If you dont have a plane your neighbor with the plane will make
deliveries.

Not4wood
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Not4wood
We didnt see roads but rivers, and all the houses we saw had planes in the
back yard. Mostly more than one.
How many of the people flying are licensed?
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 17:45:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Not4wood
Considering I have not spoken to any of them at all, you know what happens
when you assume. But I would have to say all of them. They are very good
neighbors and help one another when the weather gets so bad and you need
supplies. If you dont have a plane your neighbor with the plane will make
deliveries.
That doesn't mean that they've all obtained private pilot's licenses.
--
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Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 14:34:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay Honeck
You're wasting your breath -- MX simply can't be convinced that flying
is affordable in the US. This despite the fact that our first plane
cost less than my Ford conversion van -- and that there are tens of
millions of Americans who spend more on golf each year than I do
flying.
There are also tens of millions who cannot afford motor vehicles.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 14:33:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by boB
You just don't have the fever MX.
There are multiple potential attractions to aviation. Wanting to
bounce around in a tin can at altitude is only one of them.
Post by boB
For some it's a dream come true to be in the air. And in the
US, costing less than a used motorcycle, anyone can be flying
within a couple weeks, actually less than that, in a fully
enclosed ultralight.
I don't even consider an ultralight to be an aircraft. The tin cans
are bad enough.
Post by boB
You're not going to visit Auntie Edna in Davenport in the UL, but you
are flying.
Wow. You're flying in an airliner, too; why not just buy a ticket?
--
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TheSmokingGnu
2006-12-09 18:10:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
I don't even consider an ultralight to be an aircraft. The tin cans
are bad enough.
I would like to take this opportunity to say that they are, in point of
fact, *Aluminum* cans, not tin.

And, I would also like to point out the wonderful variety of aircraft
constructed of that miracle material, wood.

Furthermore, I point out that accident statistics put flying in GA
aircraft at approximately the same "danger" level as riding a motorcycle
down the highway.

Forthwith, I point out that stupid pilots get what they deserve, and
that if one is apt, alert, and well-trained, one can enjoy real piloting
of GA aircraft well into one's golden years.

Perhaps some of "us" in this group are afraid to step outside, lest we
experience a dose of reality and promptly fall over dead, but for the
rest, flying the real deal placates the desires better than any session
of simulation can. If you spend your whole life afraid of the world,
you'll end up a shallow husk of a man, stuck posting on Usenet to
engender any form of human contact, however brief or hostile.

TheSmokingGnu

PS: At least here in the US, most flight schools have some sort of demo
flight, where they'll take you up with an instructor pilot for a half
hour or 45 minutes, for a pittance ($50 around where I live). I
encourage anyone the least bit interested to take this flight, and see
what real aviation is like (the frame rate's better, at any rate).
Don Burnette
2006-12-09 18:14:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheSmokingGnu
Post by Mxsmanic
I don't even consider an ultralight to be an aircraft. The tin cans
are bad enough.
I would like to take this opportunity to say that they are, in point of
fact, *Aluminum* cans, not tin.
And, I would also like to point out the wonderful variety of aircraft
constructed of that miracle material, wood.
Furthermore, I point out that accident statistics put flying in GA
aircraft at approximately the same "danger" level as riding a motorcycle
down the highway.
Forthwith, I point out that stupid pilots get what they deserve, and that
if one is apt, alert, and well-trained, one can enjoy real piloting of GA
aircraft well into one's golden years.
Perhaps some of "us" in this group are afraid to step outside, lest we
experience a dose of reality and promptly fall over dead, but for the
rest, flying the real deal placates the desires better than any session of
simulation can. If you spend your whole life afraid of the world, you'll
end up a shallow husk of a man, stuck posting on Usenet to engender any
form of human contact, however brief or hostile.
TheSmokingGnu
PS: At least here in the US, most flight schools have some sort of demo
flight, where they'll take you up with an instructor pilot for a half hour
or 45 minutes, for a pittance ($50 around where I live). I encourage
anyone the least bit interested to take this flight, and see what real
aviation is like (the frame rate's better, at any rate).
I for one, would absolutely love to learn to fly in real life, for now,
simulations satisfy my cravings, but it is something I have always wanted to
do, and I hope someday to be able to swing it financially to at least get my
private pilot's license.

I fly a fair amount now, commercially, for my work. I love flying, but
nowaday's commercial travel has become such a pain. So for now, game is
better for me than real, but I hope to someday, be able to say the opposite.
--
Don
Matt
2006-12-09 18:33:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Burnette
I for one, would absolutely love to learn to fly in real life, for now,
simulations satisfy my cravings, but it is something I have always wanted to
do, and I hope someday to be able to swing it financially to at least get my
private pilot's license.
May I suggest that I you do it as soon as possible? My friend's Dad
always had this dream of buying a boat and go sail around the world.
He read everything about it. Years. The dream however ended abruptly
after he went on a deep sea fishing trip with us. My friend said it
appears that his Dad had a change of heart.

I take that back. On second thought, maybe you shouldn't do it as
soon as possible. Some people were completely happy until after they
won the lottery.
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 21:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
May I suggest that I you do it as soon as possible? My friend's Dad
always had this dream of buying a boat and go sail around the world.
He read everything about it. Years. The dream however ended abruptly
after he went on a deep sea fishing trip with us. My friend said it
appears that his Dad had a change of heart.
How did a deep-sea-fishing trip do this?
--
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Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 21:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheSmokingGnu
Furthermore, I point out that accident statistics put flying in GA
aircraft at approximately the same "danger" level as riding a motorcycle
down the highway.
I do not find that reassuring.
Post by TheSmokingGnu
Forthwith, I point out that stupid pilots get what they deserve, and
that if one is apt, alert, and well-trained, one can enjoy real piloting
of GA aircraft well into one's golden years.
I agree. The statistics are clearly skewed by a minority of stupid
pilots and ill-maintained aircraft (mostly the former). A very
careful pilot in a well-maintained aircraft can fly all his life and
never encounter a problem.

The same holds true for motorcycles, incidentally.
Post by TheSmokingGnu
Perhaps some of "us" in this group are afraid to step outside, lest we
experience a dose of reality and promptly fall over dead, but for the
rest, flying the real deal placates the desires better than any session
of simulation can. If you spend your whole life afraid of the world,
you'll end up a shallow husk of a man, stuck posting on Usenet to
engender any form of human contact, however brief or hostile.
Strange that I see people equating simulation with fear.
Post by TheSmokingGnu
PS: At least here in the US, most flight schools have some sort of demo
flight, where they'll take you up with an instructor pilot for a half
hour or 45 minutes, for a pittance ($50 around where I live). I
encourage anyone the least bit interested to take this flight, and see
what real aviation is like (the frame rate's better, at any rate).
Since I don't have the means to follow-up on a demo flight, why
bother?
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 00:55:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
I'd like to paraphrase your question: which would you rather do, do it in
real life or play the game?
At this point in time, I prefer the game.
Post by Matt
My preference... the game. Real life is too expensive, too time consuming,
too much trouble, too dangerous and well.... too real.
I'm not sure about the "too real" part, but I agree with your other
points.
Post by Matt
I'm speaking as someone who was involved in a real plane crash. I ended up
'landing' in a hospital for about a year for physical rehabilitation and
therapy.
Unfortunately, the only type of aviation that is even remotely
accessible to ordinary people if they wish to act as pilots is general
aviation, and general aviation is pretty dangerous.
--
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Matt
2006-12-09 02:25:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Unfortunately, the only type of aviation that is even remotely
accessible to ordinary people if they wish to act as pilots is general
aviation, and general aviation is pretty dangerous.
I don't know why but what you said reminds of this snippet I read from
a long forgotten source:

"An optimist invented the airplane. A pessimist invented the
parachute".

The point is, both have their roles and a good one at that.
Jose
2006-12-09 04:54:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
and general aviation is pretty dangerous.
How do you decide the relative risks of flying and other activities?

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 05:04:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jose
How do you decide the relative risks of flying and other activities?
By looking at the numbers. On a per-trip basis, general aviation is
about a hundred times more dangerous than commercial scheduled flights
on larger airliners for major American carriers (the safest form of
air travel).
--
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Jose
2006-12-09 05:12:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Jose
How do you decide the relative risks of flying and other activities?
By looking at the numbers.
I'm more interested in how you figure the relative risks of flying (say)
a GA airplane vs (say) climbing ladders, riding a motorcycle, driving on
the highway, running a marathon, eating balogna, or just spending life
sitting down letting your body deteriorate. You are right that
commercial aviation is the safest form of flying, and GA is considerably
more dangerous. However, "looking at the numbers" is not sufficient.
You must look at the right numbers for the risk in question, and
interpret them correctly.

I'm interested in the details of the comparisons you've done.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 05:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jose
I'm more interested in how you figure the relative risks of flying (say)
a GA airplane vs (say) climbing ladders, riding a motorcycle, driving on
the highway, running a marathon, eating balogna, or just spending life
sitting down letting your body deteriorate.
I haven't done those calculations.
Post by Jose
You are right that commercial aviation is the safest form of flying,
and GA is considerably more dangerous. However, "looking at the numbers"
is not sufficient. You must look at the right numbers for the risk
in question, and interpret them correctly.
What errors in interpretation have I made?
Post by Jose
I'm interested in the details of the comparisons you've done.
What comparisons?
--
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Jose
2006-12-09 05:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
I haven't done those calculations.
Then on what basis do you make the claim (that flying GA aircraft is
dangerous)? Well, everything is dangerous, I presume you mean =more=
dangerous than... well... what?
Post by Mxsmanic
What errors in interpretation have I made?
I don't know. I don't know if you've made any. But comparisons are
tricky. (per mile? per hour? per passenger hour? per trip? per
mission?)

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Quilljar
2006-12-09 11:11:43 UTC
Permalink
Flying as a pilot for real is the best by far. Simming is only a very pale
substitute, however well done. The point for me about being a pilot is that
it is very dangerous indeed. You can enjoy moments of fright, even in the
circuit ,should you inadvertently fly into a bit of cloud. Then, at any time
you could swerve off the runway and crash either intentionally or by
accident. There is nothing to stop you pushing the stick forward and diving
in to the sea or the ground. It is sooo easy to walk into a spinning prop at
the airfield. It is a very tempting way to die cleanly by flying at full
throttle into the sea!
None of this incipient danger or fear can be reproduced in the sim and that
it what is missing. Practically all my near death experiences have been
either in military fixed wing aircraft or helicopters on or near aircraft
carriers. As a young single man I loved it. Now, perhaps not so much...but
without a bit of terror, what is lfe for?
--
A Merry Christmas!
Cheers
Quilly
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 14:42:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quilljar
Flying as a pilot for real is the best by far. Simming is only a very pale
substitute, however well done. The point for me about being a pilot is that
it is very dangerous indeed.
Some people find danger unpleasant. For them, danger is a negative,
not a positive, and dangerous occupations are unpleasant ones, whereas
danger-free occupations are pleasant.
Post by Quilljar
None of this incipient danger or fear can be reproduced in the sim and that
it what is missing.
And that's one key advantage to simulation.
Post by Quilljar
Practically all my near death experiences have been
either in military fixed wing aircraft or helicopters on or near aircraft
carriers. As a young single man I loved it. Now, perhaps not so much...but
without a bit of terror, what is lfe for?
Enjoyment. I'm sorry that you're afflicted with thrill-seeking
behavior, but I am not.
--
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RandyL
2006-12-09 18:29:35 UTC
Permalink
Quolly,
I agree totally. Flying a sim is like reading about flying in a good
book. The book may be exciting, and informative, and enjoyable to read. But
it's not exactly the same thing as pushing the throttle full forward, and
pulling back on the yoke.

Randy L.
--
"When making an emergency off-field
landing at night, turn on the landing lights
just prior to touchdown.
If you don't like what you see, then turn
off the landing lights."
Post by Quilljar
Flying as a pilot for real is the best by far. Simming is only a very pale
substitute, however well done. The point for me about being a pilot is
that it is very dangerous indeed. You can enjoy moments of fright, even in
the circuit ,should you inadvertently fly into a bit of cloud. Then, at
any time you could swerve off the runway and crash either intentionally or
by accident. There is nothing to stop you pushing the stick forward and
diving in to the sea or the ground. It is sooo easy to walk into a
spinning prop at the airfield. It is a very tempting way to die cleanly by
flying at full throttle into the sea!
None of this incipient danger or fear can be reproduced in the sim and
that it what is missing. Practically all my near death experiences have
been either in military fixed wing aircraft or helicopters on or near
aircraft carriers. As a young single man I loved it. Now, perhaps not so
much...but without a bit of terror, what is lfe for?
--
A Merry Christmas!
Cheers
Quilly
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 21:54:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by RandyL
I agree totally. Flying a sim is like reading about flying in a good
book. The book may be exciting, and informative, and enjoyable to read. But
it's not exactly the same thing as pushing the throttle full forward, and
pulling back on the yoke.
It's not the same as freezing or roasting in an underheated or
overheated cabin, or losing all enjoyment of the flight because one
has a full bladder and no toilet, or being bounced around until one
must vomit into a bag held in one hand while the other tries to hold
the yoke steady, or being terrified by any one of a vast number of
problems that can arise while flying and that may or may not be
related to the flying task itself.

I've experienced take-off in aircraft; it's fun. I'm not sure that
it's fun enough to justify the staggering overhead associated with it,
however. Taking off in MSFS lacks physical sensations, but it is fun,
too, and there's none of the overhead.
--
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Matt
2006-12-09 18:40:50 UTC
Permalink
...but
Post by Quilljar
without a bit of terror, what is lfe for?
Yep! Just like weekends also. Definitely and positively more fun
when you have to go to the salt mines Monday to Friday. Less fun when
you enjoy the salt mines.

Life is definitely more valuable, after you've seen how easy and
quickly death can be.

More philosophically, evil is good because without it, good can not
be defined ie. can not exist :-)
Slade
2006-12-09 18:53:32 UTC
Permalink
Well put Quilly, I know that you won't go out in a hospital bed somewhere
but in a ball of fire like Dr. Strangelove riding the bomb down, swinging
your cowboy hat and yelling, YEHAAAAAAAAAAA!!! lol

Slade
Post by Quilljar
Flying as a pilot for real is the best by far. Simming is only a very pale
substitute, however well done. The point for me about being a pilot is
that it is very dangerous indeed. You can enjoy moments of fright, even in
the circuit ,should you inadvertently fly into a bit of cloud. Then, at
any time you could swerve off the runway and crash either intentionally or
by accident. There is nothing to stop you pushing the stick forward and
diving in to the sea or the ground. It is sooo easy to walk into a
spinning prop at the airfield. It is a very tempting way to die cleanly by
flying at full throttle into the sea!
None of this incipient danger or fear can be reproduced in the sim and
that it what is missing. Practically all my near death experiences have
been either in military fixed wing aircraft or helicopters on or near
aircraft carriers. As a young single man I loved it. Now, perhaps not so
much...but without a bit of terror, what is lfe for?
--
A Merry Christmas!
Cheers
Quilly
Matt
2006-12-09 19:43:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quilljar
Flying as a pilot for real is the best by far. Simming is only a very pale
substitute, however well done. The point for me about being a pilot is
that it is very dangerous indeed. You can enjoy moments of fright, even in
Yep, I don't understand why people insist in using condoms ... LOL
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 14:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jose
Then on what basis do you make the claim (that flying GA aircraft is
dangerous)?
It is much more dangerous than flying scheduled airlines. The numbers
support that. Where is the problem?
Post by Jose
Well, everything is dangerous, I presume you mean =more=
dangerous than... well... what?
Many activities bring with them a greater or lesser degree of risk.
But I didn't mention other activities, only aviation. What is your
point?
Post by Jose
I don't know.
I agree.
Post by Jose
But comparisons are tricky. (per mile? per hour? per passenger
hour? per trip? per mission?)
I believe I mentioned by trip. But GA is more dangerous than
scheduled airlines in almost every respect. Denying this is in itself
a bit risky.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Jose
2006-12-09 16:06:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
It is much more dangerous than flying scheduled airlines. The numbers
support that. Where is the problem?
The problem is that's not the question I was asking. (that is, assuming
you care about the question I was asking)
Post by Mxsmanic
Many activities bring with them a greater or lesser degree of risk.
But I didn't mention other activities, only aviation. What is your
point?
My point is that you make decisions based on the premise that GA is
"dangerous". Not that it's "more dangerous than airline flying", just
that it's "dangeorus". I am interested in how you quantify this, and
what things that you do in real life you compare it to.
Post by Mxsmanic
I believe I mentioned by trip.
Ok, how about flying vs. bicycle riding... per trip. Compare flying
from New york to Cleveland to bicycling from New York to Cleveland.
Which is more dangerous on a per-trip basis? (My argument is not that
one or the other is safer, but that sometimes, the statistics, while
correct, may be inappropriate in context)
Post by Mxsmanic
But GA is more dangerous than
scheduled airlines in almost every respect.
That's not what I'm comparing.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Matt
2006-12-09 17:32:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jose
Ok, how about flying vs. bicycle riding... per trip. Compare flying
from New york to Cleveland to bicycling from New York to Cleveland.
Which is more dangerous on a per-trip basis? (My argument is not that
Let me give this a shot.

Lets take statistics completely out of the picture (ie. because as
we've probably all heard before 'there are lies, more lies, and
statistics'). Same conditions.

Pilot flying happily, as is the bicyclist. Suddenly, each has a
non-fatal heart attack. Plane and bicycle crash. Doesn't the
bicyclist have a better chance of surviving the incident?
Jose
2006-12-09 18:52:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Pilot flying happily, as is the bicyclist. Suddenly, each has a
non-fatal heart attack. Plane and bicycle crash. Doesn't the
bicyclist have a better chance of surviving the incident?
Actually, I don't think so. Bicycle crashes, bicyclist is unprotected,
may well get run over three times before the cars stop. Airplane glides
to a landing in trees, pilot is protected by an aluminum cage (to some
extent anyway) and a seat belt. The most important factor may be
availability of immediate aid.

I don't know the numbers, but it does not seem obvious to me that one is
clearly more likely to die than the other.

In any case, this is a highly unlikely scenario, which limits its
usefulness as an illustration.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Jose
2006-12-09 18:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Same conditions.
Pilot flying happily, as is the bicyclist. Suddenly, each has a
non-fatal heart attack.
Oh.. one other thing. The plane flight is three hours of sitting. The
bicycle trip is three days of pedaling, some of which is through
mountains. Who has the greater exposure to the risk of a heart attack?

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Matt
2006-12-09 19:40:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jose
Post by Matt
Same conditions.
Pilot flying happily, as is the bicyclist. Suddenly, each has a
non-fatal heart attack.
Oh.. one other thing. The plane flight is three hours of sitting. The
bicycle trip is three days of pedaling, some of which is through
mountains. Who has the greater exposure to the risk of a heart attack?
If we're going to compare, then let's make sure the circumstances are
as comparable as possible. Assume it's in a desert and there are no
trees. Assume further that both just had 1 hour of operating. Both
have the same congenital heart disease. They are identical twins. In
other words, all things being the same ... except one's in the plane
flying at typical height and speed, and the other is on a bike biking
at typical height and speed.

Both have a non-fatal heart attack. Who's likely to survive?
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 21:55:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jose
Oh.. one other thing. The plane flight is three hours of sitting. The
bicycle trip is three days of pedaling, some of which is through
mountains. Who has the greater exposure to the risk of a heart attack?
The one who is sitting, particularly when the engine quits.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Jose
2006-12-09 22:31:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Jose
Oh.. one other thing. The plane flight is three hours of sitting. The
bicycle trip is three days of pedaling, some of which is through
mountains. Who has the greater exposure to the risk of a heart attack?
The one who is sitting, particularly when the engine quits.
Why?

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 17:40:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jose
My point is that you make decisions based on the premise that GA is
"dangerous".
I make decisions based upon many things. The relative danger of GA
compared to scheduled commercial air travel is only one of those
things.
Post by Jose
Not that it's "more dangerous than airline flying", just
that it's "dangeorus".
No. I make my decision based on the fact that it is more dangerous
than flying on an airline (or driving a car). I don't have sufficient
data for comparison with most other activities.

In any case, the risk is only one of many factors influencing my
preference for simulation.
Post by Jose
Ok, how about flying vs. bicycle riding... per trip.
I have no data at hand on bicycling. But I don't ride a bicycle,
anyway. In Paris, cycling is indeed risky (and also very awkward,
frustrating, and inconvenient).
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Jose
2006-12-09 18:47:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Jose
Not that it's "more dangerous than airline flying", just
that it's "dangeorus".
No. I make my decision based on the fact that it is more dangerous
than flying on an airline (or driving a car). I don't have sufficient
data for comparison with most other activities.
In any case, the risk is only one of many factors influencing my
preference for simulation.
There is risk (and effort), and there is benefit.

You've been told many times that to adequately answer your questions, a
single real-life airplane flight in a small GA plane would make all the
difference in your understanding (BENEFIT). You've just said that you
do not know the relative risk of GA flying vs many other common
activities (except for airline flying, which is irrelevant). It is true
that such a flight would cost money you don't have (requring EFFORT).

So...

On what basis do you decide that the benefit of learning the answers to
your questions is not worth the risk (which you haven't really
considered) or the effort (which can be translated into "time not
simming")? Especially since you don't accept the answers given to you
by actual pilots who actually fly actual airplanes?

Or...

is asking questions on usenet a social simulator?

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 21:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jose
You've been told many times that to adequately answer your questions, a
single real-life airplane flight in a small GA plane would make all the
difference in your understanding (BENEFIT).
Yes, and I'm tired of hearing it.

Most people have traditionally underestimated my ability to correctly
imagine what something is like before experiencing it. Perhaps they
are unable to do this--I don't know--but I do it fairly well. I've
virtually never been surprised by the actual experience, provided that
I've done research in advance. It's unlikely that any epiphany would
result for me from taking a plane ride, and if it changed my attitude
at all, it might just as well change it negatively as positively, as
there are many things about real flight that aren't that pleasant.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Smudge Smith
2006-12-09 15:00:35 UTC
Permalink
Having played with various FPS... and been in a real fire-fight...I know
which I prefer!

And don't forget, life is like a video game....it gets faster and
harder...and then you die.
Mxsmanic
2006-12-09 15:38:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Smudge Smith
Having played with various FPS... and been in a real fire-fight...I know
which I prefer!
Which one?
--
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Smudge Smith
2006-12-09 22:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Which one?
In my younger days I was a bit of an adrenaline junkie, fast motorcycles,
rock climbing, skydiving, white water kayaking...There is nothing that
focuses the mind quite as clearly as a brief encounter with Mr Death. Even
winning a firefight, (where for some Game Over really meant exactly that).
In a FPS, you can just pause when it's lunch time... and no one really dies.
Now I'm older, times change. I have a family so I have more in life to live
for than just myself. Besides, I would have a lot less chance of winning a
firefight than I did 25 years ago, so I content myself with FPS. I play BF2
a lot and whilst its great entertainment, its not quite the same as having
the crap shot out of you for real, which in hindsight is probably no bad
thing.
As for flying, I'm no pilot. I have flown in lots of aircraft and jumped out
of a few too. I recently had a flying lesson in a microlight for a birthday
present. How does that compare with flying the microlight in FSX? Give me
the real thing anytime.
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