Poll: dome projection

Post by Didier Chesto
Hi guys,
I've took up the plan to develop a projection dome for cockpit builders.
The concept is this: the projector projects in a ball shaped mirror [1]
(like you see in security) and this is reflected in a ball shaped dome
[2]*. The final dome is not the complete half ball but only the segment
where you would see the flight sim scenery. If you look closely to the
commercial flight sims, you see such a segment in front of the cockpit [3].
What we are going to do is to experiment with the dimensions and make a 1
off unit for our own use. If this works, we consider to make a mold and
produce these domes for other flight simmers. This would be from glass
fibre with a projection coating on the inside. The package would also
contain the mirror and setup/alignment instructions. The size would fit any
jet sim like B737, B747, A320 etcetera.
So here's my poll (or market research if you wish :-)): for how much do you
think we could sell such a dome?
[1]
http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/exhibition/domeinstall/kuching5.jpg
[2] http://www.playerzblog.com/wp-content/180.JPG
* this is a transparent dome with back projection, we want to project on
the inside
[3] http://www.sim-industries.com/files/images/SIM010507-37.jpg

Do you supply free setups for Beta testers? ;-p

B

Didier Chesto

2009-01-26 11:07:54 UTC

Post by WayPoint

Do you supply free setups for Beta testers? ;-p
B

If you bring it back in one piece, it's ok :-P

Or you can test is overhere in Holland, you're welcome.

--
Everything I do is either illegal, immoral, or fattening.
(W.C. Fields)

Gregory

2009-01-26 11:27:52 UTC

Couldn't find the old links about IMAX, but you might want to look into
how it's done. The concept is a cross between a movie theater and a
planetarium. Loading Image...

I think the idea would work, although you'd have to do a lot of testing
with prototypes. One of the challenges would be optical `spillover´ as
if illuminating a dome or dish antenna.

-G

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:34:40 +0100, Didier Chesto

Andrew Sutcliffe

2009-01-26 11:49:36 UTC

I think about ?100 would be about enough for one of those. Be wary of
schiemflug and keystoning, I would like to see how your linearity works out.
Also, hot spots should be avoided. And into what size room are you designing
it to fit?

Andrew

Post by Gregory
Couldn't find the old links about IMAX, but you might want to look into
how it's done. The concept is a cross between a movie theater and a
planetarium. http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/imax-theatre.gif
I think the idea would work, although you'd have to do a lot of testing
with prototypes. One of the challenges would be optical `spilloverŽ as
if illuminating a dome or dish antenna.
-G
On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:34:40 +0100, Didier Chesto

Didier Chesto

2009-01-26 13:09:55 UTC

Post by Andrew Sutcliffe
I think about ?100

Was this a euro or dollar sign? And what about transport cost?

Post by Andrew Sutcliffe
would be about enough for one of those. Be wary of
schiemflug and keystoning, I would like to see how your linearity works out.
Also, hot spots should be avoided. And into what size room are you designing
it to fit?
Andrew

Thanks for the hints. I'm desiging it in order to save space or money.
Normal projectors need a big distance. What you see from cockpit builders
is that they at least need the room as big as a garage. Some of them use
rear projection. If you want to avoid that, you would need a short throw
projector but they are very expensive. I think it should be feasible to
make the dome 1 metre wider than the cockpit, considering how it's done in
the commercial sims. A B737 MIP is 1.5m wide, take some extra for the
shell, so about 2.5-3m wide dome is what I'm aiming for. I think it could
be positioned 1-2m in front of the pit. That's less than the 3-6m you need
with a projector. But this is still guessing, we don't even have a drawing
yet.

--
Everything I do is either illegal, immoral, or fattening.
(W.C. Fields)

Andrew Sutcliffe

2009-01-27 19:31:01 UTC

HI

That was a wuro sign and I think that this should be you goal for production
costs of the item.
Once you add packaging, shipping, profit, marketing etc. you will soon reach
a limit of potential buyers. Depends if you want a high turnover/lower
margin or low turnover/higher margin. Is this to be a commercial project or
a sideline?
There are many calculations to be made a prototypes to be tried. I have been
in the video/data projections business for more than 25 years and it's still
largely limited by the nature of light and how it travels. Lens improvements
(and 'lens-less' projectors) have had some impact, but still you have the
same basic problems.
how about using light and flexible light emitting plastic screens cut to
size?

A.

Post by Andrew Sutcliffe
I think about ?100

Was this a euro or dollar sign? And what about transport cost?

Didier Chesto

2009-01-27 23:17:16 UTC

Post by Andrew Sutcliffe
HI
That was a wuro sign and I think that this should be you goal for production
costs of the item.
Once you add packaging, shipping, profit, marketing etc. you will soon reach
a limit of potential buyers. Depends if you want a high turnover/lower
margin or low turnover/higher margin. Is this to be a commercial project or
a sideline?

It is a project on the sideline, maybe to finance my own cockpit I'm
planning to build (together with a friend). I do have my own company
though, so I know how to run a business ;-) Marketing will be by word of
mouth and maybe expose at the yearly Flight Simulator Weekend here in the
Netherlands.

But I don't understand your price. The spherical mirror alone is EUR 95
already. We need at least EUR 100 for fibre material and on top of that the
projection paint which is not cheap as well. Also, a standard projection
screen of similar size is hundreds of euro. So I don't understand why think
100 euro is feasible.

Also bear in mind that this is aimed at cockpit builders. They have the
choice for 3 beamers and 3 screens now. The dome we want to develop is a
better solution. So it is reasonable that it costs more as well.

Post by Andrew Sutcliffe
There are many calculations to be made a prototypes to be tried. I have been
in the video/data projections business for more than 25 years and it's still
largely limited by the nature of light and how it travels. Lens improvements
(and 'lens-less' projectors) have had some impact, but still you have the
same basic problems.

The problem that I predict is that the center of the spherical mirror
should be in the center of the dome. Otherwise the distance from the mirror
to the dome is not constant. This might eliminate the idea of saving space,
because either the mirror will be so far back that the cockpit is in the
way or the screen is so far in front of the cockpit that we might as well
project directly. We'll have to calculate a lot, indeed.

Post by Andrew Sutcliffe
how about using light and flexible light emitting plastic screens cut to
size?

That implies projection from the back and you need a long distance for the
projector. The idea is to save space by projecting via the spherical
mirror.

Thanks for the input anyway!

--
Everything I do is either illegal, immoral, or fattening.
(W.C. Fields)

Dallas

2009-01-27 23:56:34 UTC

Post by Didier Chesto
The problem that I predict is that the center of the spherical mirror
should be in the center of the dome.

The mirror would seem to present a lot of problems.. for instance the
image would be backwards.

Can you not find a fisheye lens?

--
Dallas

Didier Chesto

2009-01-28 08:35:15 UTC

Post by Didier Chesto
The problem that I predict is that the center of the spherical mirror
should be in the center of the dome.

The mirror would seem to present a lot of problems.. for instance the
image would be backwards.

Not if you set the projector to mirror the image, just like when you
project from behind on a transparent screen.

Post by Dallas
Can you not find a fisheye lens?

I've been searching but it's not common for projectors. They don't have a
fitting to screw lenses on, like camera's. The solution is a short throw
projector but these cost at least EUR 1300 each (times 3). But having a
special fish eye lens developed is also an option. No idea how much this
would cost. The market for this would be bigger because everyone could
update a standard projector to a short throw projector.

--
Everything I do is either illegal, immoral, or fattening.
(W.C. Fields)

Dallas

2009-01-28 16:05:51 UTC

Post by Didier Chesto
Not if you set the projector to mirror the image,

Ah... didn't know they did that.

I had this in my bookmarks and thought it might be of interest to you...
sounds a bit like what you are trying to do?

http://www.flypfc.com/new%20products/visual%20systems.html

--
Dallas

Didier Chesto

2009-01-28 22:31:29 UTC

Post by Didier Chesto
Not if you set the projector to mirror the image,

Ah... didn't know they did that.
I had this in my bookmarks and thought it might be of interest to you...
sounds a bit like what you are trying to do?
http://www.flypfc.com/new%20products/visual%20systems.html

Yes but this screen is only curved in 1 direction. It's a segment of a
cylinder. What I'm studying is a segment of a sphere.

B.t.w., would you know if it's possible to have flight simulator zoom out
so that it gives 180 degrees viewing angle? Is this depending on the screen
resolution? For instance, if you have the triple head 2 go from Matrox,
this presents itself to the computer as 1 screen of 3600x1040 (or so)
pixels, or even a full HD beamer of 1900x1300-ish. Can you open 1 view in
FS and have it display 180 degrees? In the latter case we would be able to
aim a full HD beamer to a sperical mirror and wrap the image around the
cockpit. I've experimented with it but I cannot zoom under .31 zoom factor.

--
Everything I do is either illegal, immoral, or fattening.
(W.C. Fields)

boB

2009-01-29 09:33:05 UTC

Post by Didier Chesto
Not if you set the projector to mirror the image,

Ah... didn't know they did that.
I had this in my bookmarks and thought it might be of interest to you...
sounds a bit like what you are trying to do?
http://www.flypfc.com/new%20products/visual%20systems.html

Yes but this screen is only curved in 1 direction. It's a segment of a
cylinder. What I'm studying is a segment of a sphere.
B.t.w., would you know if it's possible to have flight simulator zoom out
so that it gives 180 degrees viewing angle? Is this depending on the screen
resolution? For instance, if you have the triple head 2 go from Matrox,
this presents itself to the computer as 1 screen of 3600x1040 (or so)
pixels, or even a full HD beamer of 1900x1300-ish. Can you open 1 view in
FS and have it display 180 degrees? In the latter case we would be able to
aim a full HD beamer to a sperical mirror and wrap the image around the
cockpit. I've experimented with it but I cannot zoom under .31 zoom factor.

This place may be able to give you some ideas. Although I can't seem to
find that dome there any more.

http://www.realsims.com/home.html

Loading Image...

--
========================
boB
========================

Dallas

2009-01-28 16:12:38 UTC

These guys might also be of passing interest:
http://www.bugeyetech.com/avsim_files/fse.html

--
Dallas

Didier Chesto

2009-01-28 22:24:12 UTC

Post by Dallas
http://www.bugeyetech.com/avsim_files/fse.html

Hm, this works only if you're sitting right in front of it. It's like a
fresnel lens that gives the impression your monitor is bigger than it is.
Not suitable for full size cockpits but thx for thinking with me. Really
appreciate it!

--
Everything I do is either illegal, immoral, or fattening.
(W.C. Fields)

Dallas

2009-01-26 18:43:38 UTC

Post by Didier Chesto
So here's my poll (or market research if you wish :-)): for how much do you
think we could sell such a dome?

Depends on the market, commercial or home.

Most deep pocket home users, I would guess, would like to see a $1000 -
$1500 price tag. Commercial users would theoretically be making money with
it so they'd be willing to spend much more.

--
Dallas

Dallas

2009-01-26 19:00:20 UTC

Post by Didier Chesto
If this works, we consider to make a mold and
produce these domes for other flight simmers

I wouldn't spend a day trying to manufacture my own dome... there must be
hundreds of thousands of pre-made domes to consider. Consider
architectural sources of skylights etc...
http://www.circularskylight.net/imagegallery.htm

They also sell the reflective surface found on slide screens as a paint.

--
Dallas

Didier Chesto

2009-01-26 21:23:07 UTC

Post by Didier Chesto
If this works, we consider to make a mold and
produce these domes for other flight simmers

I wouldn't spend a day trying to manufacture my own dome... there must be
hundreds of thousands of pre-made domes to consider. Consider
architectural sources of skylights etc...
http://www.circularskylight.net/imagegallery.htm
They also sell the reflective surface found on slide screens as a paint.

Good idea but I don't see any sizes that would suit a sim. And if they
could be made in a custom size, the cost would be huge. Still you would
have a half sphere instead of the segment for a flight sim.

--
Everything I do is either illegal, immoral, or fattening.
(W.C. Fields)

Dallas

2009-01-26 22:53:14 UTC

Post by Didier Chesto
And if they
could be made in a custom size, the cost would be huge.

Maybe not... they generally just cut a hole in a plate, lay a piece of
plastic on it and heat it up. The bottom part of the machine generates a
vacuum and the plastic forms a bubble through the hole on the vacuum side.

Looks a lot like a kid blowing bubble gum...

--
Dallas

Didier Chesto

2009-01-27 08:28:00 UTC

Post by Didier Chesto
And if they
could be made in a custom size, the cost would be huge.

But the biggest stock article (69") is $ 563.90. For a projection dome that
fits a 737 cockpit, the size is at least 100".

--
Everything I do is either illegal, immoral, or fattening.
(W.C. Fields)

John Ward

2009-01-26 22:14:46 UTC

Hi Varmit,

Strewth, that sounds like excellent advice.

How do you know stuff like that, mate??

Regards,
John Ward

Post by Didier Chesto
If this works, we consider to make a mold and
produce these domes for other flight simmers

I wouldn't spend a day trying to manufacture my own dome... there must be
hundreds of thousands of pre-made domes to consider. Consider
architectural sources of skylights etc...
http://www.circularskylight.net/imagegallery.htm
They also sell the reflective surface found on slide screens as a paint.
--
Dallas

Dallas

2009-01-26 22:47:26 UTC

Post by John Ward
How do you know stuff like that, mate??

I watch the discovery channel.

--
Dallas

John Ward

2009-01-26 23:27:37 UTC

I was thinking about getting cable this year, for the History and Discovery
Channels - maybe next year, or the year after, depending...

JW

Post by John Ward
How do you know stuff like that, mate??

I watch the discovery channel.
--
Dallas

Didier Chesto

2009-01-27 08:29:14 UTC

Post by John Ward
I was thinking about getting cable this year, for the History and Discovery
Channels - maybe next year, or the year after, depending...

The longer you wait, the more history there will be. More value for your
money.

--
Everything I do is either illegal, immoral, or fattening.
(W.C. Fields)

John Ward

2009-01-28 06:30:36 UTC

Hi Dider,

Excellent point - I should have thought of that, mate! :-))

BTW, if you don't mind me asking, did you get your idea re the spherical
projector dome project after your recent shot in that Simulator, or had you
already been working on it?

Regards,
John Ward

Post by John Ward
I was thinking about getting cable this year, for the History and Discovery
Channels - maybe next year, or the year after, depending...

The longer you wait, the more history there will be. More value for your
money.
--
Everything I do is either illegal, immoral, or fattening.
(W.C. Fields)

Didier Chesto

2009-01-28 09:02:42 UTC

Post by John Ward
BTW, if you don't mind me asking, did you get your idea re the spherical
projector dome project after your recent shot in that Simulator, or had you
already been working on it?

The challenge to project from a short distance keeps me busy since I
visited a flight sim exposition in 2006 (before I didn't know that people
built complete cockpits). The sim ride from 2 weeks ago made me decide that
if I would build a cockpit, I would use projection. The disadvantage of big
monitors (like the sim I was in) is that you see the besels.

--
Everything I do is either illegal, immoral, or fattening.
(W.C. Fields)

John Ward

2009-01-28 10:43:27 UTC

Hi Dider,

Thanks for that, mate.

A number of blokes here use multi-monitor setups

Some have said that if you "hide" some of the bezels, by placing the
edge of one monitor directly behind the edge of another one, the results
aren't discouraging. as this effectively halves the width of the bezel you
"see"...

Others have said that you fairly quickly find yourself not really
noticing the bezels nearly as much, as you sub-consciously "get used to them
being there"...

When you say big monitors, are you talking about big plasmas, or
widescreen 24', 30", or 34" widescreen LCDs?

Regards,
John Ward

Post by John Ward
BTW, if you don't mind me asking, did you get your idea re the spherical
projector dome project after your recent shot in that Simulator, or had you
already been working on it?

Didier Chesto

2009-01-28 11:47:42 UTC

Post by John Ward
Hi Dider,
Thanks for that, mate.
A number of blokes here use multi-monitor setups
Some have said that if you "hide" some of the bezels, by placing the
edge of one monitor directly behind the edge of another one, the results
aren't discouraging. as this effectively halves the width of the bezel you
"see"...

I thought about that too. But the image 'jumps' at the junction.

Another idea is to dismantle the monitors and mount the panels against each
other. I don't know if the image on the display panels actually stretch to
the physical border. In large displays (for instance in a theatre or
concert), you see panels that do so they can be stacked. But if this is
possible with the panel inside a consumer monitor, I don't know.

Post by John Ward
Others have said that you fairly quickly find yourself not really
noticing the bezels nearly as much, as you sub-consciously "get used to them
being there"...
When you say big monitors, are you talking about big plasmas, or
widescreen 24', 30", or 34" widescreen LCDs?

The sim in Brugge uses 5 34" widescreens. They are right in front of the
windscreen. The far left and far right don't cover the complete window.

--
Everything I do is either illegal, immoral, or fattening.
(W.C. Fields)

Didier Chesto

2009-02-02 21:44:35 UTC

LOL, I don't seem to be the only one with this idea.

http://www.northernflightsim.com/projectionscreen.shtml

Price: $ 3800

Great stuff on this site BTW, but expensive. Top range I guess for heavy
use.

--
Everything I do is either illegal, immoral, or fattening.
(W.C. Fields)

Dallas

2009-02-02 21:56:31 UTC

Post by Didier Chesto
LOL, I don't seem to be the only one with this idea.

Welcome to the modern age... get a great idea and 10 other people have
already patented it and have it in production.

:- )

--
Dallas

Didier Chesto

2009-02-03 08:51:34 UTC

Post by Didier Chesto
LOL, I don't seem to be the only one with this idea.

Welcome to the modern age... get a great idea and 10 other people have
already patented it and have it in production.
:- )

:-D

Dome projection is not new anyway, even for use in commercial flight sims.
But somebody selling exactly the same thing I was thinking of was a
surprise indeed. Anyway, I think we can produce it for less than half the
price but plans are only in brainstorming phase though.

--
Everything I do is either illegal, immoral, or fattening.
(W.C. Fields)

Didier Chesto

2009-02-08 00:36:27 UTC