Review of Reno Air Races 2011 crash

(wrong location - shows crash on tarmac, not in VIP area)

Article about injured spectators 1 year later

http://www.rgj.com/article/20120916/EVENTS05/309160052/ "nine others died" (site is slow - be patient)
Loading Image...

(from NTSB - shows correct crash site)
Loading Image...

(3500×2333 - impact site)
Loading Image...

(1024×768)
Loading Image...

(1920×1080 - poor quality)
Loading Image...

(4000×746 - debris field mosaic)
Loading Image...

(3132×2292)

See how there are two 'rows' of carpeted seating sections with 'space'
in between, and carped walkways between sections. Crater on LEFT.

(1930×1281)
Loading Image...

(3288×2127 - impact site)
Loading Image...

(4000×2657)
Loading Image...

(817×1024)

(1280×909)

This article says the race was a "circus"

http://www.andmagazine.com/content/phoenix/11355.html
Loading Image...

(950×448)
http://media.commercialappeal.com/media/img/photos/2011/09/17/Air_Show_Crash.JPG (3132×2292)
Loading Image...

(2329×1671 - severed arm and chunks of flesh)
Loading Image...

(559x480)
Loading Image...

(640×480)
Loading Image...

(640×459)
Loading Image...

(2048×1206)

NTSB:

Summary: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/summary/AAB1201.html

Report: http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/AAB1201.pdf (report says nine fatalities + one pilot)

-G

WayPoint

2013-10-31 04:52:58 UTC

Also noticed there was no fire-ball on impact. Why is it so?
The death toll may have been more with a big ka-boom!

unknown

2013-10-31 05:26:10 UTC

Also noticed there was no fire-ball on impact. Why is it so?
The death toll may have been more with a big ka-boom!

There is also the 'miracle' factor.

How many times on the news have you seen an accident where the car is ripped
apart but the occupants receive only minor injuries. Totally inexplicable
but it doesn't necessarily point to a conspiracy. Fate plays a big part.

Iain Smith

2013-10-31 13:17:28 UTC

Post by WayPoint
Also noticed there was no fire-ball on impact. Why is it so?
The death toll may have been more with a big ka-boom!

Because not every incident is a Hollywood production?

Iain
Rugby, UK

Gregory

2013-11-01 01:22:14 UTC

On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 13:17:28 +0000, Iain Smith

Post by Iain Smith

Post by WayPoint
Also noticed there was no fire-ball on impact. Why is it so?
The death toll may have been more with a big ka-boom!

Because not every incident is a Hollywood production?

That's true but the NEWS is highly managed and crafted.

Speaking of a fireball.. the NTSB report doesn't mention anything
about amount of fuel on board, fire, or lack of fire. Nodda.

Notice the airplane went into a slow CCW helical path up, over and
into the ramp with a LEFT wing down attitude. Most of the impact
energy was reflected in a forward direction. Due a the RIGHT wing high
impact, a lot of debris was ejected diagonally to the RIGHT (see video
at top.) I think Jimmy might have been smashed to pieces and ejected
in that direction. Did you see the forearm and body fragments on the
ramp to the RIGHT of the impact spot? People MUST have been injured
by the debris energy ejected to the right.

-G

Syke

2013-10-31 13:15:10 UTC

Did anybody spot the guy on the grassy knoll?

Syke

Post by Gregory
Remember the Reno Air Races in Sept 2011 and Jimmy Leeward's horrific
P-51 crashed? The media reported 3 people were killed? Today I was
looking at the HIGH-RES photos and videos.. and determined that a LOW
death toll was report for PR reasons.
IIRC.. I also posted the crash seemed too much like a precision strike
and as such was suspicious. The P-51 did indeed crash into the VIP
area between seating sections, dead center along the flight line. This
incredible circumstance (VIP section and center flight line) is an
extraordinary coincidence!
There's plenty to look over. See one photo with chunks of flesh and
severed body parts scattered about the ramp. Can you believe it??
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/business/economy/graphic-view-of-reno-air-show-crash/2011/09/20/gIQAjt9ViK_video.html
http://youtu.be/OCC5YlQ7v60 (slo-mo)
http://youtu.be/DGInPHqLN4s (animation)

http://kbmt.images.worldnow.com/images/15485295_BG4.jpg (wrong location - shows crash on tarmac, not in VIP area)

http://images.tmcnet.com/featurestory/ap/2011/09/21/RENO-PLANE-CRASH-2-JPEG-3.jpg
Article about injured spectators 1 year later

http://www.rgj.com/article/20120916/EVENTS05/309160052/ "nine others died" (site is slow - be patient)
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/27/article-2194358-14B68D70000005DC-64_634x372.jpg (from NTSB - shows correct crash site)
http://static.businessinsider.com/image/523b57caeab8ead86a647574/image.jpg (3500×2333 - impact site)
http://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_1024w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2011/09/20/National-Economy/Videos/09202011-47v/09202011-47v.jpg (1024×768)
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/QNkKlVAJ2QQ/maxresdefault.jpg (1920×1080 - poor quality)
http://i.imgur.com/tUDYi.jpg (4000×746 - debris field mosaic)
http://media.commercialappeal.com/media/img/photos/2011/09/17/Air_Show_Crash.JPG (3132×2292)

See how there are two 'rows' of carpeted seating sections with 'space'
in between, and carped walkways between sections. Crater on LEFT.

http://media.spokesman.com/picture_story_item_images/Air_Show_Crash-2_1_t1930.jpg (1930×1281)
http://www.dailyherald.com/storyimage/DA/20110917/NEWS/709169562/EP/1/19/EP-709169562.jpg (3288×2127 - impact site)
http://www.dailyherald.com/storyimage/DA/20110917/NEWS/709169562/EP/1/5/EP-709169562.jpg (4000×2657)
http://www.dailyrepublic.com/files/2012/09/12a7reno-bw-37p-817x1024.jpg (817×1024)

http://www.komu.com/images/news/renocrash.jpg (1280×909)
This article says the race was a "circus"

http://www.andmagazine.com/content/phoenix/11355.html
http://www.andmagazine.com/phoenix_uploads/images/reno_air_crash_950.jpg (950×448)
http://media.commercialappeal.com/media/img/photos/2011/09/17/Air_Show_Crash.JPG (3132×2292)
http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/668995/81858342.jpg (2329×1671 - severed arm and chunks of flesh)
http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/668995/81858343.jpg (559x480)
http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/668995/81858344.jpg (640×480)
http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/668995/81858345.jpg (640×480)
http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/668995/81858346.jpg (640×459)
http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f225/304689d1316282715-airplane-crash-reno-air-races-friday-sept-16-2011-airshow2jpg-fc18eafef41bacf0.jpg (2048×1206)

Summary: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/summary/AAB1201.html

Report: http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/AAB1201.pdf (report says nine fatalities + one pilot)

-G

Gregory

2013-10-31 16:05:07 UTC

Post by Syke
Did anybody spot the guy on the grassy knoll?
Syke

I don't know why you guys pull-out the "tin foil hat" so quickly. :)

A lot of time was spend reviewing the links above. The entire content
of the post basically came from pasting URLs into a text file.

So let's be clear. The words in the OP were carefully chosen and
edited. What is says and means is.. when the crash happened in Sept
2011, and way before any investigation, I saw where the Mustang
impacted and mentioned it LOOKED like a precision strike.

BUT.. all that was available back then was the following diagram..

Loading Image...

which show the impact in front of the seating area! What is now
apparent is that ANYONE in the section forward of the impact would
have been obliterated. Did you wonder if those chunks of flesh were
Jimmy? how about the severed arm?

The diagram below was captured from a ZOOMED view of Fig.3 in the NTSB
report, and clearly identifies the impact site as "in the box seats!!"

Loading Image...

This is horrific.. and just an INCREDIBLY unfortunate coincidence!!
which is what the OP above says. So let's take off out kook hats now.

-G

sambodidley

2013-10-31 17:40:23 UTC

Post by Gregory
This is horrific.. and just an INCREDIBLY unfortunate coincidence!!
which is what the OP above says. So let's take off out kook hats now.
-G

Ok, Gman, I don't have a kook hat so I just put on my nightcap instead.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Gregory

2013-10-31 19:10:07 UTC

On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 12:40:23 -0500, "sambodidley"

Post by Gregory
This is horrific.. and just an INCREDIBLY unfortunate coincidence!!
which is what the OP above says. So let's take off out kook hats now.
-G

Ok, Gman, I don't have a kook hat so I just put on my nightcap instead.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Lol.. hey Sam, are you board with this topic? extreme air crashes,
blood and gore? or about to take a senior nap? It's the middle of
the afternoon for gosh sake. Know what.. the ZZZZ thing started with
Manhattan_Man and now you're running along with it. :)

-G

sambodidley

2013-10-31 19:35:39 UTC

Post by Gregory
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 12:40:23 -0500, "sambodidley"

Post by Gregory
This is horrific.. and just an INCREDIBLY unfortunate coincidence!!
which is what the OP above says. So let's take off out kook hats now.
-G

Ok, Gman, I don't have a kook hat so I just put on my nightcap instead.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Well dang, Gman, I've been ZZZZZing off and on most of my life. Started
when I was just a tot. Still take a nap every afternoon. It recharges my
cells. <g>
Sam

ManhattanMan

2013-10-31 22:37:14 UTC

Post by Gregory
Lol.. hey Sam, are you board with this topic? extreme air crashes,
blood and gore? or about to take a senior nap? It's the middle of
the afternoon for gosh sake. Know what.. the ZZZZ thing started with
Manhattan_Man and now you're running along with it.:)

Board? As in: stiff as a board?

There's no _ in ManhattanMan..

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

--
MnM

Iain Smith

2013-10-31 13:15:54 UTC

This incredible circumstance (VIP section and center flight line) is an
extraordinary coincidence!

Gregory, I know it's a difficult concept for you to grasp but
coincidences do happen! They're rarely suspicious.

Iain
Rugby, UK

Gregory

2013-11-06 17:34:35 UTC

On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 13:15:54 +0000, Iain Smith

This - locknut failure and crash into the - (VIP section and center flight line) is an extraordinary coincidence!

Gregory, I know it's a difficult concept for you to grasp but coincidences do happen! They're rarely suspicious.

Iain, not picking on you... just looking for a place to insert the
lines below.

In the "Graveyard Stall" topic posted 11/5 about the B-52 / C-17
crashes, the B-52 article..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Fairchild_Air_Force_Base_B-52_crash

has a link "List of airshow accidents and incidents"..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airshow_accidents_and_incidents

Going to the 2011 crash section, you'll find:

----
September 16 2011 Reno Air Races crash Pilot Jimmy Leeward
lost control of his highly modified P-51D Mustang "Galloping Ghost"
and crashed into spectators at the National Championship Air Races
and Air Show, killing 10 spectators, injuring 69 spectators and
killing himself. The NTSB critically investigated the incident and
found that it was traveling about 445 knots when it experienced a left
roll upset at 17.3 Gs when a section of the left elevator trim tab
separated in flight. The deteriorated locknut inserts that allowed
trim tab attachment screws to become loose, which ultimately led
to aerodynamic flutter at racing speeds. [24][25][26]
----

The deteriorated locknut inserts that allowed trim tab attachment screws to become loose, which ultimately led to aerodynamic flutter at racing speeds.

A broken or incomplete sentence is what summarized the cause
of that horrible crash. It says "locknut inserts" allowed the trim tab
screws to become loose? Below is a NTSB figure. Those nuts are
captivated and the view is from the underside. That means the
inboard screw on top 'wiggled' itself out of the deteriorated nut?

Loading Image...

Seems we're getting to the bottom of it. There are three hinges, yes?
and the trim tab broke away from the Inboard hinge, and ultimately
separated from the center hinge?

Hmm.......... Naah, forgetaboutit. :))

Anyway.. a little less than 2 months after the crash, I'm sure the guy
in the Dec 10, 2011 photo below is looking at Andreini's LEFT trim
tab.

Loading Image...

-G

sambodidley

2013-11-06 19:50:16 UTC

Post by Gregory

The deteriorated locknut inserts that allowed trim tab attachment screws
to become loose, which ultimately led to aerodynamic flutter at racing
speeds.

The nut in that picture is an Elastic Stopnut. The red plastic ring in
the top of the nut on the right is the holding device. The screw threads
itself through this plastic ring and is then held by the friction of those
plastic threads. This ring is completely missing on the nut on the left.
This plastic will deteriorate in time when used in places completely exposed
to the elements. Therefore, they need to be frequently inspected and
replaced when needed. Apparently, that wasn't done in this case.
Sam

Gregory

2013-11-10 14:25:33 UTC

On Wed, 6 Nov 2013 13:50:16 -0600, "sambodidley"

Post by Gregory
http://home.comcast.net/~flightsim/GG_locknut_insert.png

Yes.. it's very clear how a self locking nut or 'stopnut' works.

APPARENTLY

One word you hear ALL THE TIME is "apparent" or "apparently" but don't
be easily misled.

Read this: > http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/apparent <

and look here: https://www.google.com/search?as_q=apparently

ap·par·ent·ly
adverb: apparently

1. as far as one knows or can see

Synonyms: seemingly, evidently, it seems (that), it appears (that),
it would seem (that), it would appear (that), as far as one knows, by
all accounts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now.. let's look at previous incidents.

From Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Reno_Air_Races_crash#Previous_incidents

1. "On September 18, 1970, the airplane (then known as Miss Candace
Race #69) crashed after an engine failure during an air show at Reno
Stead Airport and landed short of the runway, with only minor injuries
to pilot Dr. Cliff Cummins.[20]

2. In 1998, another modified P-51 Mustang, Voodoo Chile (Voodoo), lost
a left trim tab during the Reno Air Races. The pilot, "Hurricane" Bob
Hannah, reported that the airplane pitched up, subjecting him to more
than 10 g and knocking him unconscious. When he regained
consciousness, the plane had climbed to more than 9,000 feet, and he
brought it in for a safe landing.[21][22]

3. In 1999, another highly modified P-51 called Miss Ashley II piloted
by Gary Levitz, experienced rudder flutter during an Unlimited race at
the Reno Air Races. The airframe broke up, killing Levitz.[23]"

Footnotes.. did you drill down into them?

Post by sambodidley
20 "NTSB accident report OAK71FXQ16 N.AMERICAN P-51D, registration: N79111". National Transportation Safety Board
21 "Voodoo - 98 NCAR". Warbird.com. Retrieved 2011-09-19.
22 "Reno Unlimiteds Turn 35". Avweb.com. 1998-09-27. Retrieved 2011-09-19.
23 "National Transportation Safety Board, No. LAX99FA311, Brief of Accident, Adopted 05/09/2001." Retrieved 18 October 2011.

Trim tab gone: Loading Image...

http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/?shows/reno12/voodoo/168015933

On this web page.. http://www.warbird.com/voodoo.html

"APPARENTLY, the left elevator trim tab came off the airplane at
speed, causing the bird to abruptly pitch up, subjecting driver Hannah
to over 10 G's of deceleration forces, and causing him to lose
consciousness! When he came to, the raceplane had climbed to over
9,000 feet of altitude. A shaken Hannah regained control and brought
Voodoo in for a safe landing."

Repost: http://www.warbirdaeropress.com/articles/voodoo99.htm

For sale? http://bobhannah.com/wbds/voodoo/index.html

Bob "Hurricane' Hannah was BIG in the motocross world.. who switched
to aviation after a career-ending injury ( water skiing accident.)

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=Bob+Hannah+motocross

http://www.motorcyclemuseum.org/halloffame/detail.aspx?RacerID=65

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

MISS ASHLEY II (rudder separation) fatal

N57LR September 18th, 1999: Gary Levitz, Reno crash

https://www.google.com/search?q=Miss+Ashley+II

NTSB Report

http://www.ntsb.gov/AviationQuery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001212X19791&ntsbno=LAX99FA311&akey=1

http://aafo.com/racing/news/98/06-10-98.htm

Pilot: http://www.skyfirevideo.com/aviation/garylevitz/

http://aafo.com/gary.htm

Search crash report.. and background on Gary.

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=September+1999+Gary+Levitz+crash+report

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=Gary+Levitz

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Additional Jimmy stuff!!

background:
http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/?news/120090551/leeward_091611

Popular Mechanics:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/aviation/crashes/how-a-small-piece-of-metal-caused-the-reno-air-race-crash-6481596

How a Small Piece of Metal Caused the Reno Air Race Crash

"Today the National Transportation Safety Board released its first
report on the Reno Air Race crash that killed P-51 pilot Jimmy Leeward
and 10 others. We did our own digging, talking to racers and crew
members with years of experience at Reno about what went wrong. A
small flaps failure probably caused this deadly crashbut the
accident could have been much worse."

Got that??? probably

" A small flaps failure probably caused this deadly crash.. "

PROBABLY?? Didn't NTSB conclude the cause without a reasonable doubt?

Pop Sci article's 'title' says definitively.. it was "caused by", but
in the blurb underneath, it says "probably." Is there some doubt?

-G

sambodidley

2013-11-10 18:13:01 UTC

Yep, He was probably done in by them same goons that whacked Jimmy
Hoffa.<g>
Sam

Post by Gregory
On Wed, 6 Nov 2013 13:50:16 -0600, "sambodidley"

Post by Gregory
http://home.comcast.net/~flightsim/GG_locknut_insert.png

Yes.. it's very clear how a self locking nut or 'stopnut' works.
APPARENTLY
One word you hear ALL THE TIME is "apparent" or "apparently" but don't
be easily misled.
Read this: > http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/apparent <
and look here: https://www.google.com/search?as_q=apparently
ap·par·ent·ly
adverb: apparently
1. as far as one knows or can see
Synonyms: seemingly, evidently, it seems (that), it appears (that),
it would seem (that), it would appear (that), as far as one knows, by
all accounts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now.. let's look at previous incidents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Reno_Air_Races_crash#Previous_incidents
1. "On September 18, 1970, the airplane (then known as Miss Candace
Race #69) crashed after an engine failure during an air show at Reno
Stead Airport and landed short of the runway, with only minor injuries
to pilot Dr. Cliff Cummins.[20]
2. In 1998, another modified P-51 Mustang, Voodoo Chile (Voodoo), lost
a left trim tab during the Reno Air Races. The pilot, "Hurricane" Bob
Hannah, reported that the airplane pitched up, subjecting him to more
than 10 g and knocking him unconscious. When he regained
consciousness, the plane had climbed to more than 9,000 feet, and he
brought it in for a safe landing.[21][22]
3. In 1999, another highly modified P-51 called Miss Ashley II piloted
by Gary Levitz, experienced rudder flutter during an Unlimited race at
the Reno Air Races. The airframe broke up, killing Levitz.[23]"
Footnotes.. did you drill down into them?

Post by sambodidley
N79111". National Transportation Safety Board
21 "Voodoo - 98 NCAR". Warbird.com. Retrieved 2011-09-19.
22 "Reno Unlimiteds Turn 35". Avweb.com. 1998-09-27. Retrieved 2011-09-19.
23 "National Transportation Safety Board, No. LAX99FA311, Brief of
Accident, Adopted 05/09/2001." Retrieved 18 October 2011.

------------------
Did you check out Previous Incidents? Start with the tail numbers.
Voodoo N551VC - http://www.google.com/search?q=N551VC
Miss Ashley II N57LR - http://www.google.com/search?q=N57LR
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reno 1998
http://www.kpunet.net/~curt/Reno98.htm
http://www.warbird.com/pics98-1.html
http://www.warbird.com/pics98-2.html
Special report: http://www.avweb.com/news/reno2002/183113-1.html
Reno 1999
http://www.kpunet.net/~curt/Reno99.htm
Special report: http://www.avweb.com/news/reno2002/183092-1.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
VOODOO (trim tab separation) non-fatal
N551VC September 26th, 1998: Bob Hannah, Reno mayday
http://www.google.com/search?q=Voodoo+Mustang
Photo (large - in shop)
http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/p51shows/reno2012/voodoo/RN5_7223.jpg
Trim tab gone: http://www.warbird.com/voodoo3.jpg
http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/?shows/reno12/voodoo/168015933
On this web page.. http://www.warbird.com/voodoo.html
"APPARENTLY, the left elevator trim tab came off the airplane at
speed, causing the bird to abruptly pitch up, subjecting driver Hannah
to over 10 G's of deceleration forces, and causing him to lose
consciousness! When he came to, the raceplane had climbed to over
9,000 feet of altitude. A shaken Hannah regained control and brought
Voodoo in for a safe landing."
Repost: http://www.warbirdaeropress.com/articles/voodoo99.htm
For sale? http://bobhannah.com/wbds/voodoo/index.html
Bob "Hurricane' Hannah was BIG in the motocross world.. who switched
to aviation after a career-ending injury ( water skiing accident.)
http://www.google.com/search?as_q=Bob+Hannah+motocross
http://www.motorcyclemuseum.org/halloffame/detail.aspx?RacerID=65
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
MISS ASHLEY II (rudder separation) fatal
N57LR September 18th, 1999: Gary Levitz, Reno crash
https://www.google.com/search?q=Miss+Ashley+II
NTSB Report
http://www.ntsb.gov/AviationQuery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001212X19791&ntsbno=LAX99FA311&akey=1
http://aafo.com/racing/news/98/06-10-98.htm
Pilot: http://www.skyfirevideo.com/aviation/garylevitz/
http://aafo.com/gary.htm
Search crash report.. and background on Gary.
http://www.google.com/search?as_q=September+1999+Gary+Levitz+crash+report
http://www.google.com/search?as_q=Gary+Levitz
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additional Jimmy stuff!!
http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/?news/120090551/leeward_091611
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/aviation/crashes/how-a-small-piece-of-metal-caused-the-reno-air-race-crash-6481596
How a Small Piece of Metal Caused the Reno Air Race Crash
"Today the National Transportation Safety Board released its first
report on the Reno Air Race crash that killed P-51 pilot Jimmy Leeward
and 10 others. We did our own digging, talking to racers and crew
members with years of experience at Reno about what went wrong. A
small flap's failure probably caused this deadly crash-but the
accident could have been much worse."
Got that??? probably
" A small flap's failure probably caused this deadly crash.. "
PROBABLY?? Didn't NTSB conclude the cause without a reasonable doubt?
Pop Sci article's 'title' says definitively.. it was "caused by", but
in the blurb underneath, it says "probably." Is there some doubt?
-G

Gregory

2013-11-11 12:20:20 UTC

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 12:13:01 -0600, "sambodidley"

Yep, He was probably done in by them same goons that whacked Jimmy Hoffa.<g>
Sam

Sounds like one big organized crime operation then? huh?

Did you find a connection to organized crime in the links above?
It's there for one to "see."

Hey.. at the end of the last post I mistakenly typed Pop Sci (Popular
Science) when it should be Pop Mech. The author Wise is reporting on
prelim NTSB findings when he says "probably." OTOH beware of the
headline saying one thing, and the article text say another. Also be
sure to read the LAST paragraph of any article in addition to the
headline and first paragraph.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/aviation/crashes/how-a-small-piece-of-metal-caused-the-reno-air-race-crash-6481596

Here's an interesting statement from the article..

"The consensus to emerge is that the disaster was the direct result of
the failure of... the elevator trim tab, that had been implicated in a
number of similar incidents in the past. That failure-prone component,
combined with a stroke of bad luck.....

Got that?

"..implicated in a number of similar incidents in the past."

"That failure-prone component, combined with a stroke of bad luck.."

"stroke of bad luck" ?

One more time!

"a number of similar incidents"

"that failure-prone component"

"bad luck" << Bad Luck ?

Also mentioned in the article are Bob Hannah in Voodoo Chile (Voodoo)
and Gary Levitz in Miss Ashley II. For a second there, I though the
article said 'tamper-prone components.' Lol So this is CLEARLY a
known safety, air worthiness or "flyability" issue in Mustang racing.

Here's a picture of young Bob 'Hurricane' Hannah, one of our heros
from the 70's.

Loading Image...

Good thing he didn't get whacked... umm, I mean woke up in time! :))

No really, if he got killed in a plane crash.. boy-oh-boy would I be
carrying on about it, just like the other guys.

-G

WayPoint

2013-11-07 00:27:07 UTC

Post by Gregory
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 13:15:54 +0000, Iain Smith

This - locknut failure and crash into the - (VIP section and center flight line) is an extraordinary coincidence!

Gregory, I know it's a difficult concept for you to grasp but coincidences do happen! They're rarely suspicious.

Iain, not picking on you... just looking for a place to insert the
lines below.

Looks like I'll have to get a copy of the whole report.
I keep wondering what caused the tail wheel to extend just prior to
impact. It can be seen in a pre-impact photo, but not seen in a video
clip taken on the opposite side of the race track ( <10 secs before the
crash).
What might have caused that? and did it contribute in any way?

Walt_M

2013-11-07 00:29:54 UTC

On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 10:27:07 +1000, WayPoint

Post by WayPoint
Looks like I'll have to get a copy of the whole report.
I keep wondering what caused the tail wheel to extend just prior to
impact. It can be seen in a pre-impact photo, but not seen in a video
clip taken on the opposite side of the race track ( <10 secs before the
crash).
What might have caused that? and did it contribute in any way?

Could that have been the first thing that happens if the wheels-down
lever is activated? i.e. was he trying to get the U/C down for some
reason? I'm probably wrong, but I'm encouraged by the fact that
occasionally I'm actually right. :-))))

Gregory

2013-11-10 12:58:02 UTC

On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 10:27:07 +1000, WayPoint

Post by WayPoint
Looks like I'll have to get a copy of the whole report.
I keep wondering what caused the tail wheel to extend just prior to
impact. It can be seen in a pre-impact photo, but not seen in a video
clip taken on the opposite side of the race track ( <10 secs before the crash).
What might have caused that? and did it contribute in any way?

Report: http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/AAB1201.pdf

search for tail wheel keywords

WayPoint

2013-11-10 13:38:23 UTC

Post by Walt_M
On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 10:27:07 +1000, WayPoint

Post by WayPoint
Looks like I'll have to get a copy of the whole report.
I keep wondering what caused the tail wheel to extend just prior to
impact. It can be seen in a pre-impact photo, but not seen in a video
clip taken on the opposite side of the race track ( <10 secs before the crash).
What might have caused that? and did it contribute in any way?

Report: http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/AAB1201.pdf
search for tail wheel keywords

Thank you.

Gregory

2013-11-11 12:36:49 UTC

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:38:23 +1000, WayPoint

Post by Walt_M
On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 10:27:07 +1000, WayPoint

Post by WayPoint
Looks like I'll have to get a copy of the whole report.
I keep wondering what caused the tail wheel to extend just prior to
impact. It can be seen in a pre-impact photo, but not seen in a video
clip taken on the opposite side of the race track.
What might have caused that? and did it contribute in any way?

Report: http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/AAB1201.pdf
search for tail wheel keywords

Thank you.

Did you find the answer? G forces?

Here's a Big NTSB ramp area - crash scene diagram. Mind Boggling!

Loading Image...

Another hi-res crash scene photo. See impact crater on the LEFT, and
debris field beyond. In the lower RIGHT, body parts are covered with
blue box-seating material. Jimmy's remains?

http://media.spokesman.com/picture_story_item_images/Air_Show_Crash-2_1_t1930.jpg

Suppose you noticed the redhead standing in the center right?

Who would that be? Just behind her is (what looks like) an aviation
enthusiast with green cap and backpack. He seems to be looking at
debris and body parts scattered about.

-G

Dudley Henriques

2013-10-31 14:14:44 UTC

http://kbmt.images.worldnow.com/images/15485295_BG4.jpg (wrong location - shows crash on tarmac, not in VIP area)

http://images.tmcnet.com/featurestory/ap/2011/09/21/RENO-PLANE-CRASH-2-JPEG-3.jpg
Article about injured spectators 1 year later

See how there are two 'rows' of carpeted seating sections with 'space'
in between, and carped walkways between sections. Crater on LEFT.

http://www.komu.com/images/news/renocrash.jpg (1280×909)
This article says the race was a "circus"

Summary: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/summary/AAB1201.html

Report: http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/AAB1201.pdf (report says nine fatalities + one pilot)

-G

I don't usually respond to this type of post as experience dictates to me that doing so doesn't usually achieve any positive result.
I'll make an exception here and take a wild card shot with this forum.

Concerning the Reno accident;

Our air show safety group was directly involved in the investigation of this accident.
As a consultant on this matter my remarks on the official report can be read starting on page 17 and ending on page 18.

Any suggestion that this accident involved a conspiracy as has been suggested here should be viewed by any and all reading it as pure fiction.

Thank you
Dudley Henriques

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8ZDKcThEH_eQy05dFBCRV9hb2c&usp=sharing

Gregory

2013-10-31 20:09:27 UTC

On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 07:14:44 -0700 (PDT), Dudley Henriques

Post by Dudley Henriques
I don't usually respond to this type of post as experience dictates to me that doing so doesn't usually achieve any positive result.
I'll make an exception here and take a wild card shot with this forum.
Concerning the Reno accident;
Our air show safety group was directly involved in the investigation of this accident.
As a consultant on this matter my remarks on the official report can be read starting on page 17 and ending on page 18.
Any suggestion that this accident involved a conspiracy as has been suggested here should be viewed by any and all reading it as pure fiction.
Thank you
Dudley Henriques
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8ZDKcThEH_eQy05dFBCRV9hb2c&usp=sharing

Dudley,

You mean pgs. 17-18 on the Airshow Accident Review 2011 in the link
above. That wasn't clear right away. When the GG P-51 crash first
happened, I did entertain the though of a 'shock and awe' event and
posted that here. Hmm suppose there's a bias? a pre-judice? a pre-
disposish? :)

Mustang trim tab flutter is a know failure, and there was clear
evidence of tab separation in-flight on Leeward's plane. Bob Hannah,
ex-AMA Motocross Champion had a similar trim tab experience in 1998
but regained consciousness and control of the aircraft.

You probably had access to a LOT of info from the 2011 Reno incident.
As airshow ramp hands, we would get a detailed fold-out (17"x11")
diagram of the grounds and ramp layout with aircraft placement, flight
lines/boundaries and seating areas (not to mention food and beer
stands - both free for volunteers.) No diagrams were found online
for Reno 2011 seating.

Here's where I'd estimate the impact crater was. The google earth Sat
imagery displayed is dated in 2010 before the crash occurred.

Loading Image...

You can get a view behind the grandstands from google though...

Loading Image...

-G

WayPoint

2013-11-01 02:17:44 UTC

"Precision strike" suggest that it was a deliberate, conscious effort on
the part the pilot.

Are you suggesting it was a murder/suicide ??

Gregory

2013-11-01 12:54:54 UTC

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 12:17:44 +1000, WayPoint

"Precision strike" suggest that it was a deliberate, conscious effort on
the part the pilot.
Are you suggesting it was a murder/suicide ??

Forget it, ok! I suggested that right after it happened but not now.

The words were chosen carefully but the post was NOT edited well.

So Forgetabout it!! Look at the photos and videos.. see where the
plane impacted, how the energy was reflected and dissipated, where
the debris scattered and who might have got hit, the pitch and roll
attitude at impact, etc.

One of these days you'll be able to look at the ramp area in Google
Earth and see how the crater was repaired.

-G

sambodidley

2013-11-01 16:54:05 UTC

Post by Gregory
On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 12:17:44 +1000, WayPoint

"Precision strike" suggest that it was a deliberate, conscious effort on
the part the pilot.
Are you suggesting it was a murder/suicide ??

Forget it, ok! I suggested that right after it happened but not now.
The words were chosen carefully but the post was NOT edited well.
So Forgetabout it!! Look at the photos and videos.. see where the
plane impacted, how the energy was reflected and dissipated, where
the debris scattered and who might have got hit, the pitch and roll
attitude at impact, etc.
One of these days you'll be able to look at the ramp area in Google
Earth and see how the crater was repaired.
-G

Do any of the above links mention what the pilot had for breakfast that
morning. Mmmmmmm. <g>
Sam

Gregory

2013-11-01 19:23:52 UTC

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 11:54:05 -0500, "sambodidley"

Post by Gregory
One of these days you'll be able to look at the ramp area in Google
Earth and see how the crater was repaired.
-G

Do any of the above links mention what the pilot had for breakfast that morning. <g>
Sam

=-
No, but if you read the NTSB report (see link bottom of OP) especially
1.10 Tests and Research, 1.11 Organizational and Management Info
and all of 2.0 Analysis.. the factors and cause of the crash will be
clear. Then compare with Dudley's report.

Aren't the Mustang EL Trim Tabs critical enough components (yeah?
like loss of control and catastrophic failure) for the mechanics, the
pilot, the race inspectors, the FAA to look at? Find out what happened
in the report. I still have some doubt though. How can you trust the
gvmnt when it comes to spin (no pun) and selective omission.

-G

Vic Baron

2013-11-01 18:35:59 UTC

Post by Gregory
So Forgetabout it!! Look at the photos and videos.. see where the
plane impacted, how the energy was reflected and dissipated, where
the debris scattered and who might have got hit, the pitch and roll
attitude at impact, etc.
One of these days you'll be able to look at the ramp area in Google
Earth and see how the crater was repaired.

Other than an interesting bit of tragedy - so what?

I would guess that if I exploded a small bomb in the middle of 100 people
there would be different kill patterns each time. My point - it was an
accident and it was reported by the media so initially there would be
inconsistencies if only for those facts. I would assume if Jimmy was trying
to kill his ex wife sitting in the stands, he could have devised a better
way.

Really G - good research but a waste of thread space, IMHO.

Vic

Gregory

2013-11-01 22:40:43 UTC

Post by Vic Baron

-------------

Post by Vic Baron
Other than an interesting bit of tragedy - so what?
My point - it was an accident and it was reported by the media so initially there
be would inconsistencies if only for those facts. I would assume if Jimmy was
trying to kill his ex wife sitting in the stands, he could have devised a better way.
Really G - good research but a waste of thread space, IMHO.
Vic

An interesting bit of tragedy? in my view it was one of the worst air-
show tragedies ever, with an "in your face" (in the premium seats,
that is) Mustang crash where lots of spectators had digital cameras.

Sounds like you're telling me to pipe down, Vic. Ok point taken.

I didn't think for a second that Jimmy tried to kill himself or anyone
else, however according to the NTSB report he proceeded recklessly
with the racing program, cut corners and even handed 'edited' data to
race officials and the authorities.

Now... some of you guys didn't look carefully at the photo below. What
does it present for those you can 'see?' Go ahead and click it open,
Max the screen and center it up with scroll bars.

What do you see? An impact crater in Hi-Res?

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/668995/81858342.jpg

Look on pavement below the crater.. behind the guy with white hat and
black slacks. Is that not a SPLAT where Jimmy'd body smashed onto the
ramp? Do you see a severed forearm there next to a white cooler? and
body fragments out to the lower right corner? Is that not Jimmy's body
smashed to pieces and strewn about?.. where debris was ejected out the
bottom of the AC on impact?

Were those people stepping over and walking in Jimmy's remains?

What do you-all see?

Go back to the video at the top of OP. Do you see a bloody red-white
SPRAY blowing out to the right on impact? What do you see?

-G

Vic Baron

2013-11-02 02:52:29 UTC

Post by Gregory

Post by Vic Baron

-------------

An interesting bit of tragedy? in my view it was one of the worst air-
show tragedies ever, with an "in your face" (in the premium seats,
that is) Mustang crash where lots of spectators had digital cameras.
Sounds like you're telling me to pipe down, Vic. Ok point taken.
I didn't think for a second that Jimmy tried to kill himself or anyone
else, however according to the NTSB report he proceeded recklessly
with the racing program, cut corners and even handed 'edited' data to
race officials and the authorities.
Now... some of you guys didn't look carefully at the photo below. What
does it present for those you can 'see?' Go ahead and click it open,
Max the screen and center it up with scroll bars.
What do you see? An impact crater in Hi-Res?
http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/668995/81858342.jpg
Look on pavement below the crater.. behind the guy with white hat and
black slacks. Is that not a SPLAT where Jimmy'd body smashed onto the
ramp? Do you see a severed forearm there next to a white cooler? and
body fragments out to the lower right corner? Is that not Jimmy's body
smashed to pieces and strewn about?.. where debris was ejected out the
bottom of the AC on impact?
Were those people stepping over and walking in Jimmy's remains?
What do you-all see?
Go back to the video at the top of OP. Do you see a bloody red-white
SPRAY blowing out to the right on impact? What do you see?

Anyone who has been in combat ( I have not) or had to pick up pieces after a
plane crash ( I have) will see the same thing. A sickening mess. Yes, they
were walking on bits of flesh, yes there is blood.

But I STILL fail to see any point in analyzing the fact that people get torn
to shreds in a plane crash.

I guess what I am saying is that I fail to see anything of importance in the
whole post other than to rehash an aviation accident.

Am I saddened that there was a loss of life, of course!

And I am not telling you to pipe down - you have just as much right to your
opinion as I, it's just, I this case, I fail to see the relevance in the
rehash.

Vic

Gregory

2013-11-02 16:14:16 UTC

Post by Vic Baron
Anyone who has been in combat ( I have not) or had to pick up pieces after a
plane crash ( I have) will see the same thing. A sickening mess. Yes, they
were walking on bits of flesh, yes there is blood.
But I STILL fail to see any point in analyzing the fact that people get torn
to shreds in a plane crash.
I guess what I am saying is that I fail to see anything of importance in the
whole post other than to rehash an aviation accident.
Am I saddened that there was a loss of life, of course!
And I am not telling you to pipe down - you have just as much right to your
opinion as I, it's just, I this case, I fail to see the relevance in the rehash.
Vic

It's because the thread has a CT 'stain'.. that's the issue isn't it?

Well Vic, you being Mr. P Fiftyone II (that's the 2nd), Dudley being
the Sr, find no relevance in the topic? Does that mean "let it stand
on the Media presentation" alone?

I wanted to determine WHERE the a/c struck the ramp. Now we see, and
he had a substantial roll att on impact. Someone may have been clipped
by the LEFT wing, and that would explain the body parts.

The main issue is.. was the Trim Tab a known issue from previous
incidents, and why was it so overlooked? The same thing happened to
[others like] Bob Hannah in 1998..

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=Bob+Hannah+Mustang+1998+trim+tab

See: http://www.warbirdaeropress.com/articles/voodoo99.htm

So... I found an EAA SB on the Mustang trim tabs:

http://www.warbirds-eaa.org/news/2013%20-%2002_27%20-%20P-51%20Service%20Bulletin%20Issued.pdf

These EAA guys are being sloppy with the file names and URLs, btw.

Post by Vic Baron
http://www.warbirds-eaa.org/news/2013 - 02 27 - P-51 Service Bulletin Issued.pdf

So let's tighten it up!

We want to see some DRAWINGS of the tab assembly!!!

Loading Image...

Jimmy wasn't necessarily being reckless.. more like an aggressive old
man (w/13,000 hrs?) on a tight budget that wanted to be a champion. It
seems Jimmy didn't partner with or hire engineering firms to do
structural or control analysis on his mods. It appears the 'wing chop'
mod was somehow slipped into the next years race w/o certs, that
cooked-up info was handed to race authorities and test hours were
exaggerated ~10x.

What's tragic is that he ended-up taking out so many fine aviation
people in the box seats. What a way to go, though!

-G

Walt_M

2013-11-10 20:59:13 UTC

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 12:14:16 -0400, Gregory

Post by Gregory
The main issue is.. was the Trim Tab a known issue from previous
incidents,

I admit I haven't been following this thread closely, but what I don't
get is why the "departure" of the trim tab would cause such sudden,
uncontrollable, and catastrophic aircraft behaviour.

Gregory

2013-11-04 16:38:54 UTC

On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:52:38 -0400, Gregory

NTSB Summary: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/summary/AAB1201.html
Report: http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/AAB1201.pdf

Had to give the topic a rest for at least a day. Now it turns out that
Cal Pacific: http://www.calpacificairmotive.com/products.html is
located just several hundred feet west of the Salinas hanger where
Ed Andreini's Mustang was being built/rebuilt. The GE view below
shows the relative location:

Loading Image...

It's definitely the location seen in Street View from Aviation Blvd.
Loading Image...

The WHITE 'path' in the GE screen-cap above is the direction from
which I took the following telephoto image of Andreini getting the
Mustang ready to fly... the same day we went flying in Dec 2011. :))

Ramp: Loading Image...

The UAL mechanics hangers were right nearby there [across Rwy-8].

If you remember... these are the photo of Andreini's Mustang in the
Salinas hanger a week or two before the Salinas Airshow 2011 Ramp
Hangs meeting. Loading Image...