Helicopters - forcefeedback and trim

[Oscar]

Noticed that both the default helicopters and all the helo downloads have no
forcefeedback effects (I use a MS FFB2 stick). FFB works fine with all my
planes. Any idea why?

Also never saw a trim wheel on any FS9 helo, is that not used with RL
helicopters?

Oscar

[shu]

helicopters have a mushy control stick with negilable force
--
**********
shu

Post by Oscar
Noticed that both the default helicopters and all the helo downloads have no
forcefeedback effects (I use a MS FFB2 stick). FFB works fine with all my
planes. Any idea why?
Also never saw a trim wheel on any FS9 helo, is that not used with RL
helicopters?
Oscar

[b***@nospam.com]

Not necessarily true. Flying a Schweizer 300C with the electric trim
being inop is not very pleasant, at least for any amount of time. It's
pretty tiring on your right arm/wrist.

Dave Blevins

Post by shu
helicopters have a mushy control stick with negilable force

[boB]

Post by Oscar
Noticed that both the default helicopters and all the helo downloads have no
forcefeedback effects (I use a MS FFB2 stick). FFB works fine with all my
planes. Any idea why?
Also never saw a trim wheel on any FS9 helo, is that not used with RL
helicopters?
Oscar

Most helicopters have hydraulic assist, if not fly-by-wire, and there is
no feedback (usually, if you do get feedback you may be in trouble)

A hydraulic failure will cause the controls to become stiff. A Bell 206
without hydraulics is fairly easy to land from a hover. A Bell 205 will
require most pilots to land with some forward ground speed.

Cobras have 2 hydraulic systems and an a accumulator. If both hydraulic
pumps fail it's VERY hard to control and requires a ground speed
landing of over 50 Knots. I was unlucky enough to have a hydraulic
failure in an AH-1 and I think I hit the runway in excess of 100 Knots.
Took the whole runway at Ft Riley Kansas to stop. We left a trail of
hydraulic fluid from the approach end to the departure.

As for trim, we have a system called Force Trim which is just a spring
assembly that you can engage and it will hold the cyclic in a position
while flying straight and level but you still have to make small inputs.

That is in Army helicopters. The civilian Bell 206 I flew had no force
trim at all.

[Oscar]

Thanks Bob, for this detailed reply - and of course it's always good to hear
from somebody who has RL flight experience.

Re your AH-1 experience, sounds like you were lucky to walk away in one
piece.

BTW: if you like helo's have a look at this - its half in Russian, but the
pics are interesting. http://avia.russian.ee/

Happy New Year, Oscar

Post by boB

Post by Oscar
Noticed that both the default helicopters and all the helo downloads have no
forcefeedback effects (I use a MS FFB2 stick). FFB works fine with all my
planes. Any idea why?
Also never saw a trim wheel on any FS9 helo, is that not used with RL
helicopters?
Oscar

Most helicopters have hydraulic assist, if not fly-by-wire, and there is
no feedback (usually, if you do get feedback you may be in trouble)
A hydraulic failure will cause the controls to become stiff. A Bell 206
without hydraulics is fairly easy to land from a hover. A Bell 205 will
require most pilots to land with some forward ground speed.
Cobras have 2 hydraulic systems and an a accumulator. If both hydraulic
pumps fail it's VERY hard to control and requires a ground speed
landing of over 50 Knots. I was unlucky enough to have a hydraulic
failure in an AH-1 and I think I hit the runway in excess of 100 Knots.
Took the whole runway at Ft Riley Kansas to stop. We left a trail of
hydraulic fluid from the approach end to the departure.
As for trim, we have a system called Force Trim which is just a spring
assembly that you can engage and it will hold the cyclic in a position
while flying straight and level but you still have to make small inputs.
That is in Army helicopters. The civilian Bell 206 I flew had no force
trim at all.
--
Take care
boB
__________________________________________________________________________
Bob, Gabriella, Kuma, Chica, Balto, Blitz, Gussie, Costa and Tiger
Kempner, Central Texas
_________________________________________________________________________

[boB]

Post by Oscar
Thanks Bob, for this detailed reply - and of course it's always good to hear
from somebody who has RL flight experience.

You are very welcome. With all the knowledge combined in this group of
Simmers, I am happy to share some of the few things I can talk about.

Post by Oscar
Re your AH-1 experience, sounds like you were lucky to walk away in one
piece.

Naw, The emergency procedure worked beautifully, with the exception of
me touching down at 100K plus instead of the procedure airspeed of a
minimum of 50K. Even though the book says "a minimum of 50K, I don't
think they would expect 100K. The controls were very hard to move and
the emergency accumulator only guarantees 4 strokes of the collective,
so I think the adrenaline level told me "land fast,land fast"

If I can find the pictures I can show the result of a hydraulic failure
I had on the range at a hover. It happened so fast I don't really
remember everything except after planting the aircraft on the ground I
was concerned we were going to roll over as one skid was sinking in the
mud. Luckily the skid found solid ground. I will find the pictures.

The other thing that came out on the tower recording was my co-pilots
mayday transmission. His radio call was "MAYDAY MAYDAY - 490 GOING DOWN
ON THE RANGE"

The tower came back with "490 CLEARED DOWN RANGE, TARGETS OF YOUR CHOICE"

Not a good tower crew :)

Post by Oscar
BTW: if you like helo's have a look at this - its half in Russian, but the
pics are interesting. http://avia.russian.ee/
Happy New Year, Oscar

Thanks for the Web Site. And happy new year to everyone.

[b***@nospam.com]

Post by boB

Post by Oscar
Noticed that both the default helicopters and all the helo downloads have no
forcefeedback effects (I use a MS FFB2 stick). FFB works fine with all my
planes. Any idea why?

Probably because MS didn't spend the time to make it work. I bought an
MS FF2 but quickly put it on the shelf when I realized that it doesn't
do anything in the helos.

Ironically the demo unit that many stores had *did* have a mode that
emulated the rotor spinning up. I was pretty disappointed that FS
doesn't have any of that.

Post by boB

Post by Oscar
Also never saw a trim wheel on any FS9 helo, is that not used with RL
helicopters?

The Robinson R22 has a knob that is "pull to trim for cruise", that
takes some of the weight off the cyclic when you're in cruise mode. It's
kept off for hovering/approach/landing, unless you forget to push it
back down in those situations (not fatal but it makes it more work than
it needs to be when low and slow). This is modeled, sorta, in FS2004's
R22 - the trim knob can be pulled on the aux panel.

Other piston helicopters have electric trim - the S300C/CB/CBi, and I
believe the Enstroms have it. The Robinson R44 models prior to the Raven
version have electric trim, but the Raven was enhanced with boosted
controls which eliminated the need for trim.

Post by boB
Most helicopters have hydraulic assist, if not fly-by-wire, and there is
no feedback (usually, if you do get feedback you may be in trouble)

An exception is the Hughes/MD500 series, which has no boost (maybe the
"F" model does, but the C/D/Es definitely don't). The electric trim must
be used constantly during flight mode changes or else the pilot will
have a tired right arm real quick. You're moving a lot of mass around
with the cyclic, esp. on the 5-bladed D and E models.

Dave Blevins

[boB]

Post by b***@nospam.com
An exception is the Hughes/MD500 series, which has no boost (maybe the
"F" model does, but the C/D/Es definitely don't). The electric trim must
be used constantly during flight mode changes or else the pilot will
have a tired right arm real quick. You're moving a lot of mass around
with the cyclic, esp. on the 5-bladed D and E models.
Dave Blevins

Very true. I flew the OH-6 for a while and not only could the cyclic
get tiresome, the pedals at low speed NOE wore the left leg out quick.